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      03-22-2016, 11:23 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AriuSen View Post
hmm forgot that huge detail...i dont have a wing.

Yea i will try 1/8 this time....I run oem sway bars...did you mean to disconnect rear oem bar?
Yes.
It's almost easier to remove it entirely.
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      03-22-2016, 11:57 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AriuSen
by the way, this time i had 18x10 et 35 square with 10mm spacer on front on 275/35/18 nt01 and I have no rubbing at all!

my compression settings +4/+5
rebound +13/+14
Tried about 5 different settings, and this felt the best and fastest.
Its amazing how 1 click on jrz makes so much difference
So 275 on all 4 corners?

IMO the car is easier to drive on a staggered set up. That's based off my experience being in two Zs the same day at the track one with 235/265 vs 265 on all corners the later with a really good driver (not me lol). Even with the rear sway bar disconnected, the square set-up car was much more likely to "over rotate" vs. mine. (My friend has a very fast hands as well and is an experienced racer.)

We concluded that without a lot of setting experimentation staggered was easier to drive faster from an oversteer perspective. That's not to say that a square set up can't be optimized and be faster but out of the box what you experienced, but the E46 being less of a handful, is kind of typical I think. I'm sure there's a way to optimize the square set-up and also adopt a driving style to get the most out out it (later being key as well).

Totally agree that a longer wheelbase car like an E46 or E36 M3 is easier to drive on a square set up and seems to benefit from being set up square based on running my E36 M3.

This is a great thread, and I think with the experimentation you're doing, we can learn a lot about optimizing the set up of this car in different configurations.
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      03-22-2016, 12:18 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanne View Post
Alex, did you notice any diff with the Epic tune installed? Hows the car running aside from the suspension setup? watching your vid showed your gauges turning from white to blue to red every now and then. very, very cool!
vanne, I think the EPIC tune is really good.
I can feel the difference from before, but since I was short on schedule, I couldnt do the final adjustment on a dyno to make it better.

I will post the graphic and results after dyno!
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      03-22-2016, 12:19 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
So 275 on all 4 corners?

IMO the car is easier to drive on a staggered set up. That's based off my experience being in two Zs the same day at the track one with 235/265 vs 265 on all corners the later with a really good driver (not me lol). Even with the rear sway bar disconnected, the square set-up car was much more likely to "over rotate" vs. mine. (My friend has a very fast hands as well and is an experienced racer.)

We concluded that without a lot of setting experimentation staggered was easier to drive faster from an oversteer perspective. That's not to say that a square set up can't be optimized and be faster but out of the box what you experienced, but the E46 being less of a handful, is kind of typical I think. I'm sure there's a way to optimize the square set-up and also adopt a driving style to get the most out out it (later being key as well).

Totally agree that a longer wheelbase car like an E46 or E36 M3 is easier to drive on a square set up and seems to benefit from being set up square based on running my E36 M3.

This is a great thread, and I think with the experimentation you're doing, we can learn a lot about optimizing the set up of this car in different configurations.
I am starting to agree with you....when I had 245 front and 275 rear, it was so much easier to drive....I will have to try more stuff to make a conclusion, but as of today, staggered is better.

I might try removing rear sway bar....never thought of that.
I would love to run 255/275 or 265/275, but due to cost benefit, I go for square set up.

This next saturday is the track I always go to....this is the day that I will have a lot of time to try different stuff.
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      03-22-2016, 03:16 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AriuSen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
So 275 on all 4 corners?

IMO the car is easier to drive on a staggered set up. That's based off my experience being in two Zs the same day at the track one with 235/265 vs 265 on all corners the later with a really good driver (not me lol). Even with the rear sway bar disconnected, the square set-up car was much more likely to "over rotate" vs. mine. (My friend has a very fast hands as well and is an experienced racer.)

We concluded that without a lot of setting experimentation staggered was easier to drive faster from an oversteer perspective. That's not to say that a square set up can't be optimized and be faster but out of the box what you experienced, but the E46 being less of a handful, is kind of typical I think. I'm sure there's a way to optimize the square set-up and also adopt a driving style to get the most out out it (later being key as well).

Totally agree that a longer wheelbase car like an E46 or E36 M3 is easier to drive on a square set up and seems to benefit from being set up square based on running my E36 M3.

This is a great thread, and I think with the experimentation you're doing, we can learn a lot about optimizing the set up of this car in different configurations.
I am starting to agree with you....when I had 245 front and 275 rear, it was so much easier to drive....I will have to try more stuff to make a conclusion, but as of today, staggered is better.

I might try removing rear sway bar....never thought of that.
I would love to run 255/275 or 265/275, but due to cost benefit, I go for square set up.

This next saturday is the track I always go to....this is the day that I will have a lot of time to try different stuff.
Rick F.'s assessment is really spot on.

My thoughts and things to try.

Take some speed off corner entry and you'll make up the time and more mid corner and on corner exit. The Z4M and doesn't like trail braking as much as an M3, so straight line brake as a primary approach. Focus on brake pedal release smoothness. If you're not totally smooth on releasing the brakes, the shorter wheelbase means weight oscillates front to rear and back thereby decreasing the available traction. That means you're completely out of sorts by mid corner.

Try dropping a bit of corner entry speed, turn in 10 feet later or so (at lower speed) and prioritize corner exit not entry speed.

Those things bought me a lot of lap time reduction with this car. It's a different line and approach than driving an M3.

Note: even with the rear sway bar disconnected we found square set up was quite a handful mid corner and exit. It seems like you just can't quite get on the power at the same point mid or just after mid corner and "four wheel drift" tracking out. It's like there's too much bite at the front-end compared to the available traction at the rear, and instead of pushing the car forward in a "four wheel drift", the back and just wants to fly out from under you. Is that how it's feeling to you? I know we can see what we can see in the video but feel isn't available. That looks like the story with power oversteer from behind the lens.

Lastly, I think you're going to need to experiment with both equipment and modifying driving style and mine to get the most out of this car. But doing so carries over to other cars as those approaches--especially release smoothness--maximize traction.
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      03-22-2016, 06:47 PM   #50
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IMO you're way oversprung for the chassis and the track you're on.

I'm going to bogard some material from somewhere else that I happen to mostly agree with, rather than try and type this BS up myself:

http://buddyfey.blogspot.com/2009/06/springs-vol-1.html

Quote:
The sprung mass natural frequency of one corner of the car is:

Frequency = (1 / (2 * Pi)) * Square root (Wheel rate / Sprung mass)
Assuming mass of the car stays the same, the higher your spring rate, the higher your wheel rate. At too high of a spring rate, you end up with the natural frequency of the corner being over 3.5 (ideal for a none-aero car). Without aero to keep the corner "planted" through a turn, any minor bump will upset the balance of the car and cause you to "fight" it.

The rate of your springs are equivalent to what typical H-Prepared class club racers run on tracks out west. H-Prepared cars have roughly 300-350HP to a 2,800lbs chassis with moderate aerodynamic effect. Unless you drop (I assume, again) ~500lbs off the chassis and put aero on the car, you're running springs WAY too stiff for the bumpy nature of Bumpywillow. As evident by the smoother and easier time you have at Chuckwalla (much smoother than Bumpywillow, but not the smoothest track in the world by any stretch of the imagination), the fact you're way oversprung is making the car hard to drive.

Now, if the car is a 3,800 lbs car with driver (like the E9X M3), the spring rate you're running sort of makes sense. The high spring rate combined with high mass makes the natural frequency of any given corner ideal for a non-aero car. For a car that's almost 400 lbs lighter? I'd go with ~500lbs front, 600lbs rear TOPS. At least try to get to a range where the spring allows enough movement that you can use the shocks to control. Right now, with your spring rate, the chassis doesn't have a chance to react to the bumps in the middle of the turn on most of the West Coast tracks...Although, if you're used to driving karts, this may be the preferred way you drive.

In fact, if you're corner weighted and balanced, I'd run it through a wheel rate calculator like this:

http://www.hypercoils.com/spring-calculator

To get your ideal spring rate to result in a natural frequency between a 3.0 and 3.5 Hz.

Or else add aero.
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      03-22-2016, 07:06 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
Rick F.'s assessment is really spot on.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
IMO you're way oversprung for the chassis and the track you're on.



Or else add aero.
crazy amount of information!!!!

Thanks a lot!......the hack that is actually my last alternative, because I just bought new springs haha....but my friend told me the same....maybe its still not enough, but I think I should try at buttonwillow once again with the new springs with 1/8th toe in, lower 1 click compression all around and then go from there.....if i do 1:57 or under, then ill keep this setting...if I get worst time than before, then its time to change springs ONCE AGAIN.

Thanks though!!
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      03-22-2016, 11:03 PM   #52
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The Hack has math and pragmatism to support the softer spring set-up--can't argue with that! Seriously, that's solid stuff and I love the science and the math. It's what I kind of do day to day.

But that's kind been the consensus all along 500/550, etc. Given your fast hands I really want to see what you can do with a proper set-up for the tracks you drive and some decent traction. Subscribed.
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      03-23-2016, 01:20 PM   #53
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wow.... tons of great info in this thread that we can all benefit from.

The other thing I failed to point out with my setup is that I'm using stiffer front bar (H&R) in combination with no rear bar.

When I went to the square setup, i didn't feel that the car became any more twitchy.
Of note, I'm running predominately smooth tracks.
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      03-23-2016, 01:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
wow.... tons of great info in this thread that we can all benefit from.

The other thing I failed to point out with my setup is that I'm using stiffer front bar (H&R) in combination with no rear bar.

When I went to the square setup, i didn't feel that the car became any more twitchy.
Of note, I'm running predominately smooth tracks.
I was talking to my friend who has exactly same mods with only 100lbs more than me on a m3 e46 and he runs 650/750. He was telling me that he thinks his springs are also stiff because his compression is perfectly set after many trial and errors and at the end he runs +4/+5....which in conclusion, he is relying more on spring than on dampers because of the low compression setting.

I was also running +4/+5 and I think I need to go +2/+3. which also leads me to the conclusion that I am also relying more on springs....why would I pay crazy amount of money on a coilover to rely on springs 80%?

I am almost certain that 500/600 is the ideal rates for my car without wing...Please correct my thinking if I am wrong =)

I am a guy that loves constructive criticism
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      03-23-2016, 01:41 PM   #55
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My car weighs in at almost 3100 lbs, so it makes more sense that with your lighter car you would need less spring.

Aero also makes a big difference keeping the car planted, powering through a corner.
(APR front lip & rear wing)
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      03-23-2016, 01:54 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
IMO you're way oversprung for the chassis and the track you're on.
Or else add aero.
For the LAST TIME! I dont want to become a distributor for springs LOL

Could you share what you would recommend me ? 500/600? 550/650?
500/550?
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      03-23-2016, 06:52 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AriuSen View Post
For the LAST TIME! I dont want to become a distributor for springs LOL

Could you share what you would recommend me ? 500/600? 550/650?
500/550?
550/650.

Springs are cheap and easy to re-sell. Set of front and rear will ring you up for about $350. If you're handy and can install yourself, you save another $200 in labor. $200-250 for alignment, or $350 for alignment and corner balance, and you're still ahead of aero (front and rear aero on this car will run you about $2,000 plus install, IMO).

And if you've already aligned and corner balanced, as long as you keep your original ride height, you can mark your alignment position on various components so you won't have to re-align, and if you measure and keep same ride height, you won't need to re-corner balance.
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      03-23-2016, 07:15 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
Quote:
Originally Posted by AriuSen View Post
For the LAST TIME! I dont want to become a distributor for springs LOL

Could you share what you would recommend me ? 500/600? 550/650?
500/550?
550/650.

Springs are cheap and easy to re-sell. Set of front and rear will ring you up for about $350. If you're handy and can install yourself, you save another $200 in labor. $200-250 for alignment, or $350 for alignment and corner balance, and you're still ahead of aero (front and rear aero on this car will run you about $2,000 plus install, IMO).

And if you've already aligned and corner balanced, as long as you keep your original ride height, you can mark your alignment position on various components so you won't have to re-align, and if you measure and keep same ride height, you won't need to re-corner balance.
thank you! I got a sponsor at jmp auto for free alignment and cb to run bimmer challenge.... so I guess I'll buy new Springs, but first I'm gonna try something this sat
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      03-28-2016, 02:05 PM   #59
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my shop said my rear is too light... what is my solution? softer spring only on rear? add a bag of rice? lol
that is why I might be ovwrsteering too much?
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      03-28-2016, 02:14 PM   #60
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Do you have anymore fat to trim up front?
A/C ?

Is this after corner balancing?

There's basically 2 options.
- Move, add or remove mass
- corner balance
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      03-28-2016, 02:23 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AriuSen View Post
my shop said my rear is too light... what is my solution? softer spring only on rear? add a bag of rice? lol
that is why I might be ovwrsteering too much?
Is that with driver's weight in the car? If it is it looks like you've got about 200 lbs removed from the car. Time to look into removing about 80-85 lbs of weight from the FRONT of the car.

If it's done without driver's weight in the car, tell them to throw some weight equal to what you weight in the seat as positioned on how you would sit in the car, then redo the corner weight. It makes a huge difference since on this chassis the driver literally sits on top of the rear axle.

If you need to remove about 80 lbs of weight from the front, there are some areas you can look into. You can get about 10-15 lbs from rotors and calipers. Running staggered will save you as much as another 10. From there you'll have to get creative, stuff like engine cover, AC delete (if you want to go THAT extreme), and a slew of other parts (header? probably 5 lbs from a race header w/o cat?), again, depending on how extreme you want to get (or the rules of time trial).

What have you done in terms of weight removal to drop ~150 lbs on the frame?
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      03-28-2016, 02:37 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
Quote:
Originally Posted by AriuSen View Post
my shop said my rear is too light... what is my solution? softer spring only on rear? add a bag of rice? lol
that is why I might be ovwrsteering too much?
Is that with driver's weight in the car? If it is it looks like you've got about 200 lbs removed from the car. Time to look into removing about 80-85 lbs of weight from the FRONT of the car.

If it's done without driver's weight in the car, tell them to throw some weight equal to what you weight in the seat as positioned on how you would sit in the car, then redo the corner weight. It makes a huge difference since on this chassis the driver literally sits on top of the rear axle.

If you need to remove about 80 lbs of weight from the front, there are some areas you can look into. You can get about 10-15 lbs from rotors and calipers. Running staggered will save you as much as another 10. From there you'll have to get creative, stuff like engine cover, AC delete (if you want to go THAT extreme), and a slew of other parts (header? probably 5 lbs from a race header w/o cat?), again, depending on how extreme you want to get (or the rules of time trial).

What have you done in terms of weight removal to drop ~150 lbs on the frame?
that is with driver and half tank of gas
I don't have passenger seat... Maybe I'll put it back on... problem is I won't be able to take 4 tires in the car.

I have supersprint headers already and pfc bbk
i dont have sound in my car and I don't want to remove Ac... here is too hot on summer lol
I have also section 1, 2 and muffler race from SS
my rear is completly stripped with welded cage and a battery 11lbs of weight.
also have race steering wheel and no door panels.
that's pretty much it.
Its like almost impossible to remove weight from the front..... is it OK to remove the fan?

forgot to mention I also dont have windshield washer reservoir.
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      03-28-2016, 02:47 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
Do you have anymore fat to trim up front?
A/C ?

Is this after corner balancing?

There's basically 2 options.
- Move, add or remove mass
- corner balance
yes, this is after corner balance.
with corner balance, I can make 50-50 front and rear?
I think its only cross weight no?
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      03-28-2016, 03:15 PM   #64
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yes, this is after corner balance.
with corner balance, I can make 50-50 front and rear?
I think its only cross weight no?
cross weight is one parameter.

if you raise both right & left front, and/or lower both rear, you shift weight to the back.
in essence you are playing with rake.

playing with cross weights at all 4 corners is a dance that shifts weight in any direction.

(note: I do my own)
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      03-29-2016, 10:14 AM   #65
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Watching the second video reminds me of my past GPL racing days. One of these days maybe I will get to drive a real car on a real track, but there is not a shift+r on a real car :-).
Not sure if anyone else raced Grand Prix Legends (1967 GP racing simulation). It was my obsession throughout the late 90s early 2000s.

I still have no idea how to adjust the cars, my brother-in-law is into racing and would look at how I drove and check everything out and change the suspension and braking to suit my needs, he was a great crew chief.

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      03-29-2016, 10:20 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r
Quote:
Originally Posted by AriuSen View Post
yes, this is after corner balance.
with corner balance, I can make 50-50 front and rear?
I think its only cross weight no?
cross weight is one parameter.

if you raise both right & left front, and/or lower both rear, you shift weight to the back.
in essence you are playing with rake.

playing with cross weights at all 4 corners is a dance that shifts weight in any direction.

(note: I do my own)
I wish I had the cb thing to do on my own....they r so freaking expensive good tip to keep in mind
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