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      07-25-2013, 07:06 PM   #1
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First autocross with Z4MR - tips?

On Sunday I will be doing my first autocross session with my Z4MR. It is stock. I know it's mostly down to "getting to know" the car and all but do you have any tips for how to handle the car in stock form?

I did do a BMWCCA car control clinic a couple months ago so I've been around the skidpad, figure-8, slalom, etc. a few times but it's different to have it all set up all at once...
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      07-25-2013, 08:25 PM   #2
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Well considering we have no camber, taking speed at any corner isn't going to help. Our cars are boats, relatively speaking.

Anyways, the best trick I've discovered is give the car up early in a turn. What I mean by that is, brake hard and early....earlier than what you think you need and set the car up for the corner. Give up some speed on the inlet, and gain it on the outlet. You should be getting on the gas at or before apex at every corner this way. You'll carry alot more speed into the next section.

Our car can't drive like a FRS, BRZ, S2000, Miata...you need to drive it like a Corvette.


With that being said, this might help explain my point. It is my latest autocross. Listen when I get on the throttle, how my turn inputs are...etc. I don't like to shuffle steer, some people will tell you to do it but IMO it is difficult to recover quickly from slides or when the tail starts to escape. You can see how quick I can recover from a small slide or oversteer when my hands are still at 9 and 3...about.

Lastly, and this is the hardest 2 things to do:

1. Always on the brake or gas. Do not coast no matter what
2. Make your steering input, and hold it. Use the gas to modulate through the turn. Don't see-saw the wheel...you'll end up chewing away time.

Hope this helps:

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      07-26-2013, 08:49 AM   #3
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+1, the car has plenty of power to exit corners with, so brake hard before entry. Don't be afraid of ABS engaging.

You can pull the alignment pins and adjust the front strut towers to get ~ -1.5 camber, as well.
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      07-26-2013, 11:27 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post

Hope this helps:

Ah, i could watch that all day...Thanks for the tips, autocrossing my new to me Z4M tomorrow with the Porsche club in Marina, CA for first time...
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      07-26-2013, 01:05 PM   #5
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I'm not an avid auto-crosser like some but I do instruct occasionally with the local BMW CCA chapter. So this is just my personal observation.

If you've never auto-crossed before, the harder you try to go fast sooner, the slower you will go. Try and wrap that around your head.

If the organization offers you a walk-through in the morning before you get in a car, make sure you walk it. The perspective you gain from walking it will help tremendously in driving it, and I don't mean by just memorizing the course layout. That higher up perspective you gain from walking it will allow you to spot the various turn-in and apexes easier.

Lastly, take the opportunity to ride with more experienced, faster drivers if you could. My experience with this isn't related to AX, but when I first started High Performance Driving long, LONG time ago, I used to grab a ton of ride-alongs with instructors. Literally every session I'm not driving or on track, I'm out riding passenger seat with an instructor. Doesn't matter if I know the instructor or not. The fastest way to learn high performance driving, is by observing. I have a feeling that it's the same for AX.
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      07-29-2013, 12:04 PM   #6
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Thanks for the tips! I tried my best to keep them in mind while out there, but let's just say that I need to "improve". My throttle/steering input was much too jerky and I need to take a better line through corners. My biggest problem in my opinion was the slaloms, which added most time due to a couple cones I killed (penalty). I seem to turn in too quickly when passing a cone to my right, so I run it over.

I came in 11 of 15 in my class (+5.292 behind leader), and 46 of 60 overall (+6.758 behind leader). But I did beat some people at least...

And here are videos of 4 of my runs. Try not to laugh!




Last edited by intoflatlines; 08-04-2013 at 09:35 AM..
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      07-29-2013, 01:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
I'm not an avid auto-crosser like some but I do instruct occasionally with the local BMW CCA chapter. So this is just my personal observation.

If you've never auto-crossed before, the harder you try to go fast sooner, the slower you will go. Try and wrap that around your head.

If the organization offers you a walk-through in the morning before you get in a car, make sure you walk it. The perspective you gain from walking it will help tremendously in driving it, and I don't mean by just memorizing the course layout. That higher up perspective you gain from walking it will allow you to spot the various turn-in and apexes easier.

Lastly, take the opportunity to ride with more experienced, faster drivers if you could. My experience with this isn't related to AX, but when I first started High Performance Driving long, LONG time ago, I used to grab a ton of ride-alongs with instructors. Literally every session I'm not driving or on track, I'm out riding passenger seat with an instructor. Doesn't matter if I know the instructor or not. The fastest way to learn high performance driving, is by observing. I have a feeling that it's the same for AX.
Thanks for this "non-technical/driving style advice" too. I tried to do the walk-through but setting up my car took a little more time than I thought so I was not able to make it in time for the walk. It would have definitely been beneficial and I will make 100% sure next time to arrive earlier.

Next time I'll see if I can ask anyone for a ride, but I felt kind of weird doing so since most of the people out there were competing for points. I don't think an extra 200lbs would be very helpful...

Quote:
the harder you try to go fast sooner, the slower you will go.
This seemed true to me, looking at my results. My fastest run was actually one that I thought was slow because I was being more cautious. Once I started pushing it more (as shown in the videos above) I got more out of control which added time, plus the couple cones I hit...
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      08-06-2013, 08:41 AM   #8
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So here's a video from my 2nd event. I still suck but am improving somewhat.



My first event, I was 8.150 seconds behind the overall leader's raw time (6.758 seconds PAX).
Second event, I was 4.561 seconds behind (3.913 seconds PAX). I'm still pretty much in the bottom few in my class though
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      08-06-2013, 09:20 AM   #9
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Just looking at the opening slalom, I can tell you're not looking ahead enough.

The opening slalom you're taking each cone like a straight line, then suddenly yanking at the wheel to correct, and doing that at every cone. You should be weaving through a slalom, not straight line...turn, straight line...turn; etc.

As well, it seems you're waiting too late to turn the car, it is very abrupt and sudden. The car doesn't like that.

As well, it seems as so you have a death grip on the wheel. Every turn is almost forced like you are fighting the car. Throughout each turn you have multiple turn-ins where you are adding extra input into the wheel. You should be at a constant steering angle throughout the turn and modulate with your gas. Best way to do this is to go to a Cloverleaf on a freeway, take the turn at a single input and use the gas to modulate the line throughout the turn. And just keep on doing this over, and over, and over.

I don't know how tall you are, or anything like that...but you seem to be sitting away from the steering wheel quite a bit. I adjust my seat so that I can put my arms over the steerting wheel and my wrists sit over the wheel limp
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      08-06-2013, 09:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Just looking at the opening slalom, I can tell you're not looking ahead enough.

The opening slalom you're taking each cone like a straight line, then suddenly yanking at the wheel to correct, and doing that at every cone. You should be weaving through a slalom, not straight line...turn, straight line...turn; etc.

As well, it seems you're waiting too late to turn the car, it is very abrupt and sudden. The car doesn't like that.

As well, it seems as so you have a death grip on the wheel. Every turn is almost forced like you are fighting the car. Throughout each turn you have multiple turn-ins where you are adding extra input into the wheel. You should be at a constant steering angle throughout the turn and modulate with your gas. Best way to do this is to go to a Cloverleaf on a freeway, take the turn at a single input and use the gas to modulate the line throughout the turn. And just keep on doing this over, and over, and over.

I don't know how tall you are, or anything like that...but you seem to be sitting away from the steering wheel quite a bit. I adjust my seat so that I can put my arms over the steerting wheel and my wrists sit over the wheel limp
Thanks for the tips. The opening slalom was a scratch. I DNF'ed immediately as I stupidly went the wrong way around the first cone, so I wouldn't pay attention to that run too much. My keeper run was run #11 of 12 at 12:36 and I think I was very much improved (if you've got time, please take a look and let me know).

Death grip - maybe! I'll pay more attention to that next time. I am the correct distance away from the wheel though (wrists rest just past the top of the wheel with arms extended), but I could try moving an inch closer possibly. I will work on being more smooth with steering input for sure!

Times were (with direct links to timestamp):
57.138 DNF
53.880 (+1)
49.898 (+1)
50.228 (+1)
50.629 (+1)
47.829
50.729 (tried starting left instead of right on the 2nd slalom, bad choice)
48.170
48.401 (+1)
49.005 (+1)
46.630 (best)
46.906 (took it out of gear at the end of the first slalom, for some reason)

But yeah, here's a direct link to my best run. You can see the difference between the first DNF and the later run.
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      08-06-2013, 10:19 AM   #11
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I should just add that the layout of those courses suck.

Get to a SCCA event. PCA and BMWCCA courses are narrow, and have no momentum at all
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      08-06-2013, 10:32 AM   #12
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SCCA is a little too hardcore for me being a novice right now, IMO. $95 registration fee (plus SCCA membership fee since I'm not a member) for only 6 guaranteed runs over 2 days? Maybe in a couple years if/when I get more skilled... The shootout format does seem interesting though (provided that you are fast enough to be competitive).

Edit: Nevermind, looks like the fees for the lower level events are $40-$50 or so, and it's only on a single day. The course layouts do look pretty fast and nicely laid out. I will try to check one out if I can find one closeby. Unfortunately it looks like there's suprisingly no Chicago area region/chapter?

Last edited by intoflatlines; 08-06-2013 at 10:42 AM..
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      08-06-2013, 10:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intoflatlines View Post
SCCA is a little too hardcore for me being a novice right now, IMO. $95 registration fee (plus SCCA membership fee since I'm not a member) for only 6 guaranteed runs over 2 days? Maybe in a couple years if/when I get more skilled... The shootout format does seem interesting though (provided that you are fast enough to be competitive).
Are you looking at Tours and Prosolos?

There are local events all over the place. I pay $29 for a day.

Here. Chicago Region SCCA

http://scca-chicago.com/chicago-scca-solo/1225-2/
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      08-06-2013, 10:47 AM   #14
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Thanks. Just found that region through google (SCCA's region list isn't working for me). I will check out one of those for sure. Thanks for the heads up!
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      08-06-2013, 11:50 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intoflatlines View Post
Thanks. Just found that region through google (SCCA's region list isn't working for me). I will check out one of those for sure. Thanks for the heads up!
Yea, the courses are more for fast, smooth lines rather than just gate after gate after gate like most BMWCCA and PCA events are.

They also aren't there for "car control clinics". SCCA is to go fast, and have fun doing it.

On bigger sites I've been in excess of 70+ mph. Now those are fun courses
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      09-09-2013, 09:33 AM   #16
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I did my 3rd event yesterday. It was fun but I still suck of course.

1. 86.260 (slow run to learn course at speed)
2. 80.217 (2 cones)
3. 74.299 (1 cone)
4. 71.954 (no penalties!!! )
5. 72.446 (first run of 2nd set after ~2hr off time, had to get a feel for the course again)
6. 71.336
7. 70.804

So at least my times improved with each run (almost), which is all I can ask for at this point. I came in 8th out of 12 in my class. 34/61 overall raw, and 40/61 PAX.

I'll put a video up if anyone wants to give me pointers, but this time I'll make it a short video of only my best lap.
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      09-09-2013, 08:35 PM   #17
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Go ahead and post it up.

You should have a good feel for the course right off the bat from walking. You're either not looking at the course close enough, not conceptually thinking what the car is going to do at a certain point on the course...etc

You need to go through your head while walking the course:

Is the car going to understeer/oversteer here?
Can I get on the throttle sooner/later?

Etc.

Once you get to this point, your times should be within a second or two for all runs
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      09-09-2013, 09:53 PM   #18
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I'll post it up when my computer stops being a turd and lets me process the video.

I did walk the course a couple times but I should have made more time to walk it more. My instructor was the one that advised that we take it very slow for the first couple of laps. I am way too novice to be thinking/knowing if my car will over/understeer at a certain point or where exactly I'd need to be on the throttle, just by walking the course. Maybe in a couple more seasons!

I think that a big (or the main) factor that added time to my runs was me being a pussy and braking too early/lifting the throttle at the end of the straights. Of course, my choppy steering and throttle input was an issue too.

On the plus side, I had my girlfriend sign up in her car. Even though the car is very very slow and her time wasn't so good, she had a lot of fun and will be attending more events with me in the future!
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      09-09-2013, 11:29 PM   #19
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I'm going to give you one suggestion. Your head needs to turn WAY before you get to your turn-in point. For most of the turns, your head barely turns a split second before your hands move. If and when you're doing this right, your head will be turned and looking at the exit of each turn before you start braking, which means you're turning easily 1/2-3/4th of a second, if not more, before you start moving your hands. Sometimes even SECONDS before your hands move.

Your hands are not the problem, they're choppy because you're not looking far enough ahead. If you can spot your corner exit before you enter your braking zone, your hands will automatically smooth out.
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      09-10-2013, 09:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
I'm going to give you one suggestion. Your head needs to turn WAY before you get to your turn-in point. For most of the turns, your head barely turns a split second before your hands move. If and when you're doing this right, your head will be turned and looking at the exit of each turn before you start braking, which means you're turning easily 1/2-3/4th of a second, if not more, before you start moving your hands. Sometimes even SECONDS before your hands move.

Your hands are not the problem, they're choppy because you're not looking far enough ahead. If you can spot your corner exit before you enter your braking zone, your hands will automatically smooth out.
Thanks for the tip. I will definitely try to work on that next time.

Here's a really crappy hand drawn course map from what I remember. I have the full map at home. Obviously this course design was not mine and any credit should go to the Windy City BMW Autocross V organizers. As mentioned earlier in this thread, it is very tight/slow compared to SCCA and other course designs, which I guess is common for BMWCCA courses? Anyway, some people downshifted into 1st at the "snowman" thing in the top left corner because it was so slow, but I didn't because I never downshift to 1st and autocross wouldn't be an ideal time to start practicing that, plus I hear it can put a lot of stress on the tranny, something I'd like to avoid. Also the map is obviously not to scale and is not exactly the layout in terms of distances, cones, etc., but it gives the general idea.



And here's a video of my "fastest" run.



This course was much slower/tighter overall than the 2 others I did this season. We were joking that the course was designed by a Miata driver(s)
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      09-10-2013, 10:34 AM   #21
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The BMW CCA ax out there (Southern California) can easily reach speeds that require a shift up to 3rd. I've heard San Diego (Qualcom Stadium) has long and fast courses that feel more like driving on track. At the last AX I attended here in L.A. at Auto Club Speedway, there's a straight where I am bouncing off the limiter for a split second.

IMO, the so-called "fast" AX is a waste of money. I'd rather do a tight track like the infield at Auto Club Speedway or Street of Willow if I'm in the mood for fast straights. It's the tight, short AX that I feel is more fun and conducive to the time you actually get to spend on AX.

As for the head turning, take a look at your own video vs. KGolf31's video and see how early he turns his head (compared to the sound of throttle).

This is a poor example because of my dark helmet in a dark interior, but you can get a sense as to how much earlier my head is turned in to look at the exit of the turn vs when my hands actually move. It's a lot easier to spot on the track because the turns are usually longer and wider, but the same principle should apply.

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      09-11-2013, 07:43 AM   #22
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Intoflatlines -- I live in Central IL, am on the board of Champaign Co. Sports Car Club which runs predominantly in Rantoul, and am also a regular with Chicago SCCA which runs in Joliet and have run with the Windy City BMW club. I don't want you to take too much offense but you really need to attend an autocross school and get some good instruction. You have a ton of bad habits to shed. Robin Blair and Jeff Kumler are both friends who would be more than willing to give you good instruction. Your first video with the guy pointing six directions was hard to watch. Course dissection is one of the first things I teach new students. If you are going through a course by yourself or with someone where you are "driving" it (ie. going from point to point), you will never advance. You need to get to the point where you have everything imprinted in your mind before you go out. The Chicago SCCA region and their events are one of the best put on the nation. If you attend their 2 day school, part of your fees is a weekend membership which can be applied to a year long SCCA membership. If you want a less competitive and more cost effective deal, CCSCC has events 2 weekends per month with 1 day costing $30 and the second $10 with no SCCA membership required.
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