///M Car Rant

[Eccentric]

So earlier today was making a few trips to 8,000 rpm, and it got me thinking about modern M cars, and forced induction. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about the topic, but I want to offer my own ideas too and see what you think about them.

Ok, so with FI, the redline in M cars is now at 7krpm. They don't sound as good as their nearly extinct NA brethren, and run out of pull around 6krpm. Worst yet for driving aficionados is that they offer such immense low-down torque that any Forza-obsessed douche can power out of a bend without even dropping their hand to the shifter, much less their left foot to a clutch pedal.

So what will keep these easily tunable M cars from becoming the new choice chariot for Grey Poupon lovers? Its just that: BMW turbo engines are so tunable that from a street racer's perspective, it is much cheaper to buy and flash a 135/335/535 etc than it is an 1M/M3/M5. For decades if a driver wanted a very fast BMW -relative to the Mustang GT benchmark- he or she would have to buy an M car. They are luxurious, and come straight from Munich with performance specs that humble the good ol' boys and their V8s.

M cars please both the driver their lady friend, so it's easy to see why they became tool sheds. But now that the 1M shares the same (relatively) N54 engine that the 135i used to have, the quest for high-hp luxo sedans hit a roadblock. Most boy racers spend money on straight line parts, a gutted interior and new rims. And because of the engine sharing, M Division now offers them no advantage that the regular, turbo 1er/3er/5er can’t. Track rats are exempt from this logic, but then again, I'd rather a douchey track rat in an M car than a douchey frat boy, so it still follows my thought line.

Now, I don't think that poseurs will every stop buying M cars. Really, they're too sexy for egomaniacs to not be attracted to them. But in a world where 400 crank hp costs the same for BMWs with and without multicolored badges on their ass, the M crowd will certainly be a little more corner-carving-conscious, now that the extra money spent for an M-tuned vehicle goes only into a widened track, better brakes/tires/suspension, and an lsd.

In true, honest form I'll be the first to admit that I felt the 1M to be a car that a tuner could build, but for a lot more money; BMW overcharged, if you will. Now though, I really believe M Div to be making innovations with their performance cars. Power and fuel economy are up, and weight and emissions are down.

You know, nostalgia is great for us car guys. It means that no matter how dated the technology is, we can still enjoy our favorite old cruisers. But Nostalgia is just for old cars. I shouldn't have to sacrifice performance in a new sports car for the sake of living in the past. You want an I6? Great, me too. But there's nothing wrong with BMWs spitting boost (so long as the hpfp doesnt break). Manual transmissions? I love them, but that doesnt mean DCTs aren't fun too. Point being, progress requires the sacrificing of tradition. Are you willing to let new cars drive like old ones for the sake of tradition? Some say they now overcharge for M cars, but If you ask me, It's progress if they're 'charged in the first place. Watch out for that. I played with some words haha.

-Adam

Yeah this is OT, but I value the e86 forum's unique opinions, and the off-topic section gets zero traffic lol

[boondocksaint]

Not certain what I'm supposed to take away from your post. Most performance cars have their believers. And most of those performance cars offer a certain personality or dynamic that appeals to a subsection of drivers.

///M cars have a bit of a wider footprint, though, as they run the gamut from stripped down raucous racer (E30 M3, for instance) to luxury barge cruise missiles (the last gen M6, for instance). So there's kind of play within the range.

The FI/NA argument is a bit of a red herring in my opinion. They have their advantages and disadvantages, obviously, but we could see the FI argument beginning to win ten years ago, and not because of power or driving dynamic.

Fuel economy is going to be harder and harder to realize. But no one wants to go back to the 70s and 80s when cars lacked power as a whole. The turbocharger gives the ability to drive for economy or drive for power. Driving dynamics are going to follow suit. If anything, I think it requires more skill to drive a car that one minute feels like an anemic Civic DX and when boost hits it takes off like the Space Shuttle. I drove an H4 turbo on the track, and while it was AWD, it was the process of keeping it in the powerband.

But then, there's always advancement. At some point, they'll combine the variable vane technology and all the computer stuff with new ideas and we'll end up with a turbo motor that makes 500hp and can get 40mpg or something.

And the demands of enthusiasts will drive that development.

Of course, I'll probably eventually put some sort of blower on my ///M, so where does that put me? Factory NA, add-on FI? And I think there will always be manual transmissions, mainly because of how popular they are outside the US, but also because the more advanced most cars get, the less involved the driver feels. Look no further than BMW's own electric steering system for an example.

[Eccentric]

Originally Posted by boondocksaint

Not certain what I'm supposed to take away from your post. Most performance cars have their believers. And most of those performance cars offer a certain personality or dynamic that appeals to a subsection of drivers.

///M cars have a bit of a wider footprint, though, as they run the gamut from stripped down raucous racer (E30 M3, for instance) to luxury barge cruise missiles (the last gen M6, for instance). So there's kind of play within the range.

The FI/NA argument is a bit of a red herring in my opinion. They have their advantages and disadvantages, obviously, but we could see the FI argument beginning to win ten years ago, and not because of power or driving dynamic.

Fuel economy is going to be harder and harder to realize. But no one wants to go back to the 70s and 80s when cars lacked power as a whole. The turbocharger gives the ability to drive for economy or drive for power. Driving dynamics are going to follow suit. If anything, I think it requires more skill to drive a car that one minute feels like an anemic Civic DX and when boost hits it takes off like the Space Shuttle. I drove an H4 turbo on the track, and while it was AWD, it was the process of keeping it in the powerband.

But then, there's always advancement. At some point, they'll combine the variable vane technology and all the computer stuff with new ideas and we'll end up with a turbo motor that makes 500hp and can get 40mpg or something.

And the demands of enthusiasts will drive that development.

Of course, I'll probably eventually put some sort of blower on my ///M, so where does that put me? Factory NA, add-on FI? And I think there will always be manual transmissions, mainly because of how popular they are outside the US, but also because the more advanced most cars get, the less involved the driver feels. Look no further than BMW's own electric steering system for an example.

haha I just wanted to vent to people who had similar beliefs/discomforts about what the BMW brand will become.

I'll make a post in "General News and BMW car talk", now that the thread has a response.

[ZStig]

Even though a tuner can make a standard turbo BMW faster than a stock M, it will never be as amazing and desireable as a highly tuned M.

ex some upgraded 135s can hang with the new M3 v8, but once someone adds a blower to the M3, forget about it

[Eccentric]

Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle

Even though a tuner can make a standard turbo BMW faster than a stock M, it will never be as amazing and desireable as a highly tuned M.

ex some upgraded 135s can hang with the new M3 v8, but once someone adds a blower to the M3, forget about it

Agree 100% but most of my tuner friends don't care about suspension, and after this v8 dies, the engines in the high-end 3er and the M3 will be very similar. Plus for right now, a tuned 135 could pull with a stock/light bolt-on m3 for a lot less money than a blower costs for that v8.

[The HACK]

Fuel economy is a poor excuse for going FI in an ///M car.

CAFE standards are calculated in a fleet, meaning that if you sell 1,000 320Ds that move at 45 mpg for every 1 ///M6 that gets 15 mpg, your CAFE average is 44.97 mpg. It is absolutely hogwash that BMW went to FI engines in the ///Ms for fuel economy and CAFE standards, since the ///M vehicles constitute such a small percentage of the overall fleet numbers. Their bread and butter in the U.S. is still the base 3 series (328i, 335i, 335D) and improving fuel economy and CAFE standards starts with improving THOSE car's mpg rather than the ///M's mpg.

Going with the same identical engine as what is equipped in the Z4sDrive35 and the 335i M Sport is a cop-out for the 1M. They no longer can justify spending extra money to develop a REAL engine for an M, since the sales number is never going to blow anyone away (no one will pay the kind of money that a 1M with a dedicated M engine will cost, for a bottom of the line ONE SERIES in the line-up). The sales numbers on the MZ4R and MZ4C further justifies this, even without a dedicated ///M engine neither one of the MZ4s sold well enough for BMW to come remotely close to breaking even with either cars.

Let's not forget, the N54 engine suffers from some pretty BAD cooling issues. I have not seen any BMW equipped with the N54 and N55, in various state of mod, to be capable of handling the rigors of performance driving in the hands of a good driver. To put an engine like this in an ///M car is a slap in the face of all the ///M cars that came before it (and no, I don't want to hear about the 2002Turbo because THAT turbo engine was incredibly successful on the track).

[ZStig]

Originally Posted by Eccentric

Agree 100% but most of my tuner friends don't care about suspension, and after this v8 dies, the engines in the high-end 3er and the M3 will be very similar. Plus for right now, a tuned 135 could pull with a stock/light bolt-on m3 for a lot less money than a blower costs for that v8.

the extra price of the M, including the more expensive upgrades, are what will always make it more exclusive and desireable over a regular tuned BMW. I gladly pay extra for that (yet still fully respect the non-M cars)

[Hawkeye]

As long as they always at least offer a Manual transmission option I will be okay. I really dislike most of the automatics, takes a lot of the fun out of driving for me.

[txz4]

turbo IS the way of the future for performance cars if only because its soo easy, develope one for the base, tune it a little+up the price, tune it a little again+ up the price again.... simple economics, cost of doing buisiness is going up cut costs where you can. All that being said, ive driven a turbo performance car (Evo VIII) and its a pain in the ass to drive daily compared to the bigger N/A engines and doesnt have alot of the character in some departments (miss the torque of a turbo though). So i cant see why people are hating on the fact that they used a shared platform on the engine other than the fact that it makes the new M's seem a little less....M.

[dazed^]

Obviously you're going to get very biased viewpoints here. There won't be many enthousiasts here who own an M Z4, yet wished they had a 1M instead. Of course we're all S54 fanboys, cheap tunes be damned.

I personally don't care that they've 'downgraded' the 1M. It's not the car for me. I guess it dilutes the M branding in a way, but I see so many 316ti's and 330d's with M badges around here that there really is little point in M-badge chauvinism anyway.

[ZStig]

Originally Posted by dazed^

Obviously you're going to get very biased viewpoints here. There won't be many enthousiasts here who own an M Z4, yet wished they had a 1M instead. Of course we're all S54 fanboys, cheap tunes be damned.

I personally don't care that they've 'downgraded' the 1M. It's not the car for me. I guess it dilutes the M branding in a way, but I see so many 316ti's and 330d's with M badges around here that there really is little point in M-badge chauvinism anyway.

+1

people have various tastes, and BMW is great at making many people happy, as their sales grow year after year. I'm just glad they've produced something as pure as a z4M fairly recently, so we don't have to go to older BMW for the same experience

[Eccentric]

yeah I assumed zpost would be biased, but thats the great part about cars; subjectivity is the law of the land.

i love the high-revving engines, but I do also like a torquey american v8, or in this case a turbo car.


HAWKEYE, I respect that completely. I used to feel the same way. Fortunately I was given a chance to drive a 997.2 Turbo with PDK, and that was mind-altering. That car was so fast, smooth, and downright addictive to whip around a corner that the slick DCT did nothing to hamper the fun. i like to row my own gears, and despite my fratless background i enjoy slapping paddles as well. no wrong choice, just a personal preference.

[krnnerdboy]

I love the 1M! It just makes me value my e85M more

but seriously, as much as I do love the idea of a small, tight, aggressive, and torquey 1M, if the need arises for a new sub 50k sports car, the mustang boss 302 will hands down get my vote!

Having experienced the the n55 in my x5, I really can conclude that even with a tune and the phenomenal numbers that it can put down, this motor doesn't do much for my soul....nor did my buddies n54 jb4, 100oct on map 7 e92. With car's being so subjective we have to remember that the cars make the numbers and the numbers don't make the cars

[boondocksaint]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Fuel economy is a poor excuse for going FI in an ///M car.

CAFE standards are calculated in a fleet, meaning that if you sell 1,000 320Ds that move at 45 mpg for every 1 ///M6 that gets 15 mpg, your CAFE average is 44.97 mpg. It is absolutely hogwash that BMW went to FI engines in the ///Ms for fuel economy and CAFE standards, since the ///M vehicles constitute such a small percentage of the overall fleet numbers. Their bread and butter in the U.S. is still the base 3 series (328i, 335i, 335D) and improving fuel economy and CAFE standards starts with improving THOSE car's mpg rather than the ///M's mpg.

The D cars are still relatively rare here. I was not saying that fuel economy is the ONLY reason, but I do think it was a factor. The V10 going away for a TTV8? The I6 going to a TTI6? Direct injection plus turbos equals gobs of power, a wide powerband, and reasonably good gas mileage. BMW may be building performance cars but they're not incredibly stupid. Usually.

And I don't think M cars are quite as rare as they may once have been. I see more E46 M3s than I do non-Ms.

Also, if you're BMW and you can achieve an economy of scale with - as was stated above - a tune on the motor and some suspension bits being the "M" portion of the car, why wouldn't you?

Originally Posted by The HACK

Going with the same identical engine as what is equipped in the Z4sDrive35 and the 335i M Sport is a cop-out for the 1M. They no longer can justify spending extra money to develop a REAL engine for an M, since the sales number is never going to blow anyone away (no one will pay the kind of money that a 1M with a dedicated M engine will cost, for a bottom of the line ONE SERIES in the line-up). The sales numbers on the MZ4R and MZ4C further justifies this, even without a dedicated ///M engine neither one of the MZ4s sold well enough for BMW to come remotely close to breaking even with either cars.

Hence the motor sharing. Economies of scale, etc. I agree.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Let's not forget, the N54 engine suffers from some pretty BAD cooling issues. I have not seen any BMW equipped with the N54 and N55, in various state of mod, to be capable of handling the rigors of performance driving in the hands of a good driver. To put an engine like this in an ///M car is a slap in the face of all the ///M cars that came before it (and no, I don't want to hear about the 2002Turbo because THAT turbo engine was incredibly successful on the track).

Cooling issues can be solved. What we're seeing now is the foreseeable boning of the early adopters. OMG turboooooozzzzzzz etc. I think there are ways to solve and I think BMW will, but they'll charge for it. Why stick all the performance bits on a car with a pckage that's going to get leased and turned in.

In fact, what we may see is that the M parts will be cooling systems more than motors. Would that they put that much thought into them now. My old E39 is among the notorious "replace cooling bits as needed or every 30k miles" era.

Meh. This is all mental masturbation anyway. BMW's going to do what appeals to 90% of the people 90% of the time. That's where the money is, not in niche cars like the Z4Ms and their ilk.

Good points though, for sure.

[lucid]

Issues associated with the block and its internals cannot be solved through low-cost aftermarket modifications. I don't know the causes of the cooling issues associated with the N54, but if they have to do with the block, it might be hard to address them. I don't know if BMW is redesigning the block and the internals of the N54 for the 1M either.(At a quick glance, the changes seem minimal). M cars used to be distinguised from the rest primarily through their motorsport engines, which are designed to withstand high performance driving. Does not seem to be the case anymore...Will BMW lose money over that? Probably not. Would I buy an N54 equiped car as a basis for a race car build? No. Does that matter to the average M owner? Functionally no. Emotionally, maybe.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by boondocksaint

Cooling issues can be solved.

No it can not.

The cooling issues on the N54/N55 engines are inherent in the engine architecture. There's no "solving" it unless the inline 6 is to be ditched.

A very experienced professional engine builder and I were having a conversation one time about BMW engines, since he knew I'm a fanboi and have an S54. Then he brought up the point of trying to cool a production inline 6 that's under boost since we talked about ways to add more power to my car. He had mentioned that the N54 (at the time) could never be made reliable enough to handle enough boost, nor could it be made reliable enough for race applications. He had mentioned that you can not provide enough cooling flow to the last two cylinders due to the long block design. Something to do with aluminum block architecture and how the passages had to be made extra small in that particular engine.

Oddly he said that the only way to successfully supercharge or turbocharge an inline 6 is via an iron block like the old Supra and the S54 since the coolant passages can be made much larger than their aluminum counterparts. Not sure if he was trying to sell me something.

Interestingly enough, I also recall Steve Dinan having a lot of issues and problems trying to increase boost on the N54 and finding the last two cylinder temperature increased dramatically as boost is increased, and it was all he could do to extract about 80 HP out of the engine reliably with a massive 2ndary oil cooler and also increase the flow-rate to the water pump way above OEM rates. And even with all of Dinan's wizardry, we're still finding N54 engines with the full Dinan package begging for mercy at some of the warmer tracks out in California in the hands of capable drivers.

I also know a friend who campaigns, very successfully, a 135i in BMW CCA club racing. Unfortunately for him, the inherent problem in the N54 has pretty much meant he's going to have to try and find a buyer for his HS 135i and get an E9X M3. In the last 3.5 seasons he's been racing the 135i, he has not had a single race weekend where heat related limp did not rear its ugly head.

I think, once you start seeing the 1M out of the favorable confines of BMW controlled press events, you'll start to see more and more reports of "limp mode" issues and heat related issues on track. Especially when some of the more track oriented enthusiasts start to pick them up.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by The HACK

No it can not.

The cooling issues on the N54/N55 engines are inherent in the engine architecture. There's no "solving" it unless the inline 6 is to be ditched.

A very experienced professional engine builder and I were having a conversation one time about BMW engines, since he knew I'm a fanboi and have an S54. Then he brought up the point of trying to cool a production inline 6 that's under boost since we talked about ways to add more power to my car. He had mentioned that the N54 (at the time) could never be made reliable enough to handle enough boost, nor could it be made reliable enough for race applications. He had mentioned that you can not provide enough cooling flow to the last two cylinders due to the long block design. Something to do with aluminum block architecture and how the passages had to be made extra small in that particular engine.

Oddly he said that the only way to successfully supercharge or turbocharge an inline 6 is via an iron block like the old Supra and the S54 since the coolant passages can be made much larger than their aluminum counterparts. Not sure if he was trying to sell me something.

Interestingly enough, I also recall Steve Dinan having a lot of issues and problems trying to increase boost on the N54 and finding the last two cylinder temperature increased dramatically as boost is increased, and it was all he could do to extract about 80 HP out of the engine reliably with a massive 2ndary oil cooler and also increase the flow-rate to the water pump way above OEM rates. And even with all of Dinan's wizardry, we're still finding N54 engines with the full Dinan package begging for mercy at some of the warmer tracks out in California in the hands of capable drivers.

I also know a friend who campaigns, very successfully, a 135i in BMW CCA club racing. Unfortunately for him, the inherent problem in the N54 has pretty much meant he's going to have to try and find a buyer for his HS 135i and get an E9X M3. In the last 3.5 seasons he's been racing the 135i, he has not had a single race weekend where heat related limp did not rear its ugly head.

I think, once you start seeing the 1M out of the favorable confines of BMW controlled press events, you'll start to see more and more reports of "limp mode" issues and heat related issues on track. Especially when some of the more track oriented enthusiasts start to pick them up.

If that is the case, you have confirmed my suspicions. If I were to build a race car based on existing BMW platforms, I would probably go for the E46 or the E92 M3 routes. The former is affordable and readily available. I believe the latter has better suspension geometry design despite the fact that it weighs a bit more, but is not affordable at this point. In 3-4 years that will be a different story. I wouldn't mind picking up a 08 E92 M3 for $30k and doing a race car build on it in 3 years. That is actually roughly my mid-term plan...

[boondocksaint]

If the cooling issue is inherent, as you say, then so be it. I have no plans to change cars at this time. However, I would adopt a wait-and-see approach. We have the luxury of time and the ability to observe. BMW is rarely idle, for good or ill.

I find it difficult to believe that ze Germans don't know about these flaws, if what you say is true. It'll be interesting to hear how these hold up - or don't. It's also worth noting that it is not incumbent on BMW to make a car that is mod-friendly. But that's just me playing devil's advocate.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by boondocksaint

I find it difficult to believe that ze Germans don't know about these flaws, if what you say is true.

Many potential explanations for that. On a speculative note, the N54 engine was never meant to be a motorsport engine, so one should not be surprised if it doesn't hold up in demanding situations on the track. That was not its intended application, and there is no point in overengineering an engine for a street. As to why then BMW stuck it (a slightly modified version of it) in an M car...Well, that might have to do more with marketing than engineering. Again, pure speculation on my part.