Advice Needed: Cracked Block and Piston Head

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by dc_wright

You are a better man than I! At this point there would have been some kind of incident involving incendiary fuels and their shop if that were my vehicle and they were hosing me like this........

That. Or a huge lawsuit.

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by dc_wright

You are a better man than I! At this point there would have been some kind of incident involving incendiary fuels and their shop if that were my vehicle and they were hosing me like this........

Originally Posted by Finnegan

That. Or a huge lawsuit.

Y'all both know what I do for a living right? I know a lot more about firearms and I have government training in how to make them undetected. Although I do like the big thoughts. Trust me I do sympathize with them.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by Arsonism

Y'all both know what I do for a living right? I know a lot more about firearms and I have government training in how to make them undetected. Although I do like the big thoughts. Trust me I do sympathize with them.

Spring for a dyno run with logging. It will tell you what's happening with the tune. Cheap money for what's at stake.

If the DME detects a knock is should pull timing on its own. If your tuner has not messed with the knock limits and only tweaked the ignition maps, start looking at the fuel. Again a quick dyno log should give up the mystery.

My two cents....

Good luck and don't do anything without legal advice.

[wdb]

I would not dyno this motor until I was 150% certain of the tune. Make that 250%.

I'll echo what others have said, you are more patient than I am. I'd be googling 'nasty SOB gearhead lawyer' right about now.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by wdb

I would not dyno this motor until I was 150% certain of the tune. Make that 250%.

I'll echo what others have said, you are more patient than I am. I'd be googling 'nasty SOB gearhead lawyer' right about now.

100% bang on.

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by rjahl

Spring for a dyno run with logging. It will tell you what's happening with the tune. Cheap money for what's at stake.

If the DME detects a knock is should pull timing on its own. If your tuner has not messed with the knock limits and only tweaked the ignition maps, start looking at the fuel. Again a quick dyno log should give up the mystery.

My two cents....

Good luck and don't do anything without legal advice.

I would love to get it on there, but they do not have a dyno at their shop and I don't know if they have the means or would the care to get it over to one. They needed to resolve their issues with the tune from Epic (basically just calling in and getting it updated) before they went and did anything. Randy's advice was just to get it back to stock and let them figure out what the heck is going wrong, afterwards he'd be happy to help them tune it all over again and at that point I might splurge to get it on a dyno to have Randy tune it remotely or something of the sort, even if it costs me a pretty penny to do so.

Randy had assured me the tune does not mess with the knock sensors and that it also does not add hardly any timing to the original tune.

Originally Posted by wdb

I would not dyno this motor until I was 150% certain of the tune. Make that 250%.

I'll echo what others have said, you are more patient than I am. I'd be googling 'nasty SOB gearhead lawyer' right about now.

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

100% bang on.

Trust me it's been in the cards, and I feel like I have tons of ammo. But, at the same time, if I bring something like that in then I have a strong feeling the progress on the car will altogether stop moving and there will never be a finished product.

[pokeybritches]

Go back to stock.

It sucks, and I agree that the tune and headers are not the cause of the problems. But, you have to remove all doubt, especially if you're considering a lawsuit. Headers are a half day job, and the tune can be turned around while you drink a couple beers. I'll side with Randy and say that it's not the tune.

There are a few ways to adjust timing advance, which I'll do my best to explain. I'm not sure which the Z4M uses.

One method is through the use of a base table and modifier. The base table should be extremely conservative. This is the table that is used when knock has been detected. Each value includes a modifier that determines the maximum degrees of advance allowed beyond the conservative table. The car will start with the conservative table, then add timing to each value until it reaches the maximum allowed by the map. If knock is detected, it reduces timing advance until it reaches the value in the conservative table. Basically, it's like having two tables - one for your conservative base map, and one for maximum spark advance allowed.

Another way is to have several different maps, depending on fuel quality (determined based on whether knock is detected). Again, the car will initially start with a conservative base map. No knock should be detected. It will then the next most aggressive map. If no knock is detected, it will move to an even more aggressive map. If knock is detected, it will revert to a less aggressive map.

With either of these methods, a base map should exist that is so conservative that it will only knock in the most extreme cases (really, it should NEVER knock when operating with this map). If the car is using this map, something is wrong (very high IAT, poor fuel quality, etc.). It's one step away from limp mode. I can't see many tuners messing with this map, because there's no power to be had by adjusting timing in the conservative map (otherwise the car would seek a more aggressive modifier/map), and there's a high risk associated with adjusting this map. Tuners either adjust the modifier, or tweak the more aggressive maps, depending on how the ECU operates.

So, it's probably not the tune. However, you need to go back to stock or this will get worse before it gets better.

[Vanne]

Wow, missed all that over the last few days. Sorry to hear about the current issues mate.

First off, Randy is a great stand up guy, he has loads of experience on track with lots of race cars, so I'd pretty much believe him over what your mech is telling you.

Lol the tune is expired?? I had that same issue when I went to update my previous tune from the new one Randy sent me. The software is out of date, just download the new one from Randy's site. Piss easy.

I am not sure what's going on over there, but yeah stock sounds like a plan (leave the Euro headers, thats stock stuff anyways) Randy (any yourself) have the original file right? Just reload the original stock tune.

Simple.

Though I won't be too surprised if that isn't it mate, my car runs flawlessly, both tunes from the hands of the man himself.

But yeah rule that out first..

I'd actually if I were you go and do the tune upload myself on the car, makeing sure they don't fuck anything up and still blame you. Takes about 45 mins.

Anyways, very, very bloody interested how this pans out Shane. Remember, keep your Cool and maybe it's time to get someone else involved.. the whole thing about trying to blame the tune because that voids the warranty stinks to high heaven.

V.

[Arsonism]

Thanks Vanne, I might just do that, but they rarely get back to me and I wonder if they'll even let me touch the car at this point. I've seen it, but that's about it. We'll see what I can do to get out there and flash the car on their battery tender like I had done the time before.

I agree with you on your latter statement, it may be just about time to bring someone else into this.

Right now I just want to hold onto the 2010 model loaner they have me in instead of the E46 loaner (2004 or 6? I'm not sure) that they've got laying around over there... that thing was terrifying.

[Arsonism]

So I called the shop, talked to them for a little while and wound up defending myself on the points regarding the tune and the things that they wanted to do moving forward. They still wont admit that there may be something that's there fault and I was a little irate about how they had talked to me when I was in person with them the last time I was at the shop. Well, I didn't even get to talk to them about all the things that I needed to because I suppose I had him so heated that he hung up on me, which I'm still a little shocked about.

No idea if they've contacted Randy about everything yet or not, but I'm assuming not. I plan to follow up with them again tomorrow... I expect I likely will not be in the loop. I was supposed to bring their loaner car in for some service on Tuesday, that didn't happen. 102,000 and ticking.

[Vanne]

Call Randy, and see if the shop has made any attempt to contact him, take a usb stick with your stock tune down to the shop with the uploader box (I assume you have that) or the shop has it?

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Arsonism

They still wont admit that there may be something that's there fault and I was a little irate about how they had talked to me when I was in person with them the last time I was at the shop. Well, I didn't even get to talk to them about all the things that I needed to because I suppose I had him so heated that he hung up on me, which I'm still a little shocked about.

You also have to consider their point.
Something is wrong with your engine and its not a simple or apparant problem otherwise it would have been solved in the build.
If I was a machine/engine shop I wouldnt even start if there was 'a tune' involved, or even another company on which you have to rely for performance or reliability issues.
The thing is, you rely on the shop to solve the problem, not on the tuner, otherwise the engine would be at the tuners' shop being repaired.

If I would be a tuner I'd also always recommend to only apply the tune on an engine that is running good while stock. As I understand you bought the tune as a pre tuned package, not a tune custom to this engine. So the tune is a 'bolt on'.

Imho if the build engine got the damage from the tune/headers or problems related to the build is not to tell anymore. It has been taken apart again nog?
If the tune is (would be) now the thing causing problems is no direct proof that it caused the other problems. You can suspect it but the moment to verify is past.

If you rely on the shop to solve the problem, go with what they're suggesting. (solving the problem is the first priority I think, cause and responsibility of all past problems comes second)
Try not to get them mad unless you're considering going to a different shop alltogether.

[Vanne]

GuidoK, Being that the engine still isn't running right, let's blame the tune and recoup our costs and pass it onto Shane.
(Which is what the shop is suggesting at this stage?) and if it IS the tune causing the problem, it would be a very easy solve. Uploading that stock puppy would take less than 45mins.

I suspect they don't want to do that, as it will remove any blame they want to appoint from the tune. ... Which is probably why they haven't installed the stock tune.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Vanne

I suspect they don't want to do that, as it will remove any blame they want to appoint from the tune. ... Which is probably why they haven't installed the stock tune.

Ok that might be happening, but thats not what I've understood from Arsonism's posts (as he was 'defending the tune' they 'blame the tune').
But still its the way to go if the solving of the problems is the first priority.
If it's that simple (even installing original headers is only a few hours work even if it includes some flange welding) I dont understand why Arsonism hasnt insisted on it. I mean customer is king
I already suggested it 8 months ago if you want to be able to diagnose problems. And I ment these kind of problems, problems with no apparent/easy top pinpoint cause.
I then also dont get the reasoning of the shop that they blame the tune but no, lets not get rid of it. They might want to gain something but in that case they're contradicting themselves. They can only gain something if the tune/headers are at blame, and the only way to see that is to go back to stock.
But I dont know all the details of what has been said in that shop.

[GuidoK]

I also dont think the problem lies with the headers, but considering the size of the problems, I'd ditch all mods (even the light flywheel).
But I dont know if all the original parts are still there (I think the headers are).

But what I also dont understand (I might have misunderstood); Arsonism hasn't driven the new engine/car yet.
Am I right?
The thing now not running right is that it is said to predetonate. Do they mean knock?
I still dont really understand what is the exact problem now.
They made some picture with some camera?
I'd be more interested in live obd2 data. Fuel trim is measured, Ignition timing is, knock is.
I mean if the shop really wants to blame the tune, be sure what the exact technical observation criteria are.
I mean if you see knock on the sensors with INPA/DIS with tune installed and not without the tune installed, its clearly the tune.
But if you go looking on a picture made with some camera (I presume inside the cylinder walls), that's a pretty dodgy process the way I hear it.
Also fuel trims,they can vary constantly (It can take up to 50 miles or so for the long term fuel trim to be fully adjusted)
Maybe ask another shop for a 2nd opinion.

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

If I was a machine/engine shop I wouldnt even start if there was 'a tune' involved, or even another company on which you have to rely for performance or reliability issues.
The thing is, you rely on the shop to solve the problem, not on the tuner, otherwise the engine would be at the tuners' shop being repaired.

When the first motor went, the tune was not installed, I had only had the headers on the car. The shop installed the tune on the second motor, and had test drove it more than a few times throughout the course of the day while I was there.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

If I would be a tuner I'd also always recommend to only apply the tune on an engine that is running good while stock. As I understand you bought the tune as a pre tuned package, not a tune custom to this engine. So the tune is a 'bolt on'.

This is something the shop is capable of doing should they have reached out to Randy with Epic and resolved the issues of the software that they had originally downloaded. Again, I left all of this in their hands. I had let them handle every third party that was involved with the rebuilding process, machine shops, BMW of NA parts, etc. Every time I had received a story that lengthened the repair time, I really didn't want them to have more ammunition to push the repair out further this time as well. It's been 10 months since the last engine went.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

If you rely on the shop to solve the problem, go with what they're suggesting. (solving the problem is the first priority I think, cause and responsibility of all past problems comes second)
Try not to get them mad unless you're considering going to a different shop alltogether.

It also may be a little too late for that... I presented some retaliation when I realized that they hadn't reached out to Randy and were trying to scare me about a product that I had already purchased (the tune). It wasn't right for them to do and it wasn't right for nearly their entire shop to gang up on me and tell me that all the things that I had done were wrong and that everything may be my fault to begin with. I was supposed to drop off parts, not be berated in the back corner of their shop. Either way, that's passed and I really just want to get results out of them, because when something like this happens it's easy to shelve a project while they consider what's wrong instead of just keeping their hands on it to get it done. I shouldn't have gotten angry with them, however this is the first time I've shown any sign of aggression towards the shop since they've taken possession of it in October of 2015.

Originally Posted by Vanne

Call Randy, and see if the shop has made any attempt to contact him, take a usb stick with your stock tune down to the shop with the uploader box (I assume you have that) or the shop has it?

I had meant to do this with the shop but hadn't. I'm worried that IF I start messing with the tune that they won't rule it out as I would have been the one modifying the car and they would have presumed that I had known other things were wrong with it... so on and so forth. Any of which has zero evidence to stand on, but at the same time I do feel it's likely better that they go and do all of that themselves. I believe the best thing to do is to just stay on top of them about it and hopefully get things rolling forward again with the new tune.

Originally Posted by Vanne

GuidoK, being that the engine still isn't running right, let's blame the tune and recoup our costs and pass it onto Shane.
(Which is what the shop is suggesting at this stage?)

... Which is probably why they haven't installed the stock tune.

You are correct here, that's exactly what it felt like they were trying to get across with several members of the shop backing the theory. Althought hey didn't have all the details right, which was partly my fault, because I had thought back to when I had wanted to install the tune (before the car went after I had put the headers on) but I hadn't been able to do it then. Their shop was the first communication that I had with Randy and the first time that I had been able to install the tune. They've told me that they would install the original ECU again and work from there, I'm just really not sure when that's going to happen OR what will come of it.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Ok that might be happening, but thats not what I've understood from Arsonism's posts (as he was 'defending the tune' they 'blame the tune').

Correct, more or less. Randy defended the tune in detail, where I told him that I wasn't blaming him in the first place, and he helped me understand more of why it wouldn't have been the tune and rather something within the build of the motor.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

But still its the way to go if the solving of the problems is the first priority.
If it's that simple (even installing original headers is only a few hours work even if it includes some flange welding) I dont understand why Arsonism hasnt insisted on it. I mean customer is king
I already suggested it 8 months ago if you want to be able to diagnose problems. And I ment these kind of problems, problems with no apparent/easy top pinpoint cause.

Part of the reason is that I don't have the original headers and they have a set of headers, I just have a set of cerakoted euro headers. They want to put those other headers on the car and want me to get rid of the headers that I have which benefits them because they can tack those headers onto my bill at their cost. The other reason is because for some reason (I have no idea why) my motor really LOVED to blow out that first section worth of cats. I'm pretty sure that within 20-30k miles they're just going to do the same thing, if not less because it was a motor with around 60-70k on it. Lastly, I really just wanted a set of headers on this car... and now even more so because I sold my RPI. I really do realize that the obnoxious side of me comes through there at the end because I should just be focused on getting everything up and running and just be happy with a car at all, however I've damn near paid the price of the car itself for the repairs and I also kind of feel like I should get what I want out of that money. Torn argument there.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I then also dont get the reasoning of the shop that they blame the tune but no, lets not get rid of it. They might want to gain something but in that case they're contradicting themselves. They can only gain something if the tune/headers are at blame, and the only way to see that is to go back to stock.
But I dont know all the details of what has been said in that shop.

They do want to get rid of the tune so that they can do all their proper testing on the motor and get to the bottom of what's causing the car to "pre-detonate". I'm sorry if I at any point made that unclear but that is their priority currently is to return everything back to stock. They were just trying to scare me in telling me that it may not be possible and that they shouldn't have warrantied their work (even though the car died 14 miles from the shop) with the inclusion of the tune... even though they signed off on it because they had installed it. The mechanic also told me that he had heard of them and they made reputable products!

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I also dont think the problem lies with the headers, but considering the size of the problems, I'd ditch all mods (even the light flywheel).
But I dont know if all the original parts are still there (I think the headers are).

Flywheel and clutch are, along with any other bits of scrap that came off of motor 1 or 2. I'm really not sure how he has it all organized... I haven't seen any of the parts since everything had come apart the second time. But the headers would have to come from an E46 M3.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

But what I also dont understand (I might have misunderstood); Arsonism hasn't driven the new engine/car yet.
Am I right?

Affirmative.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

The thing now not running right is that it is said to predetonate. Do they mean knock?
I still dont really understand what is the exact problem now.
They made some picture with some camera?
I'd be more interested in live obd2 data. Fuel trim is measured, Ignition timing is, knock is.

I mean if the shop really wants to blame the tune, be sure what the exact technical observation criteria are.
I mean if you see knock on the sensors with INPA/DIS with tune installed and not without the tune installed, its clearly the tune.
But if you go looking on a picture made with some camera (I presume inside the cylinder walls), that's a pretty dodgy process the way I hear it.
Also fuel trims,they can vary constantly (It can take up to 50 miles or so for the long term fuel trim to be fully adjusted)
Maybe ask another shop for a 2nd opinion.

I don't know if they're big enough people to ask another shop for a 2nd opinion, but I wouldn't disagree with you there. The only thing that the shop has notified me of is that the car is detonating the fuel early and that there is "too much timing" on the car currently which is overheating the pistons and they are slamming into things within the lower block (my understanding is likely more primitive than what they've explained). There is no knock and I was informed by Randy that they do not disable the knock sensors... the computer systems for these motors know how to remove timing in order to prevent a knock and it wont allow certain things to happen if the motor is knocking. They had shown me a photo from a wire camera, much like the ones you'd see in a spy movie, to display the damage that they were beginning to see in the motor (which bothers me that the motor may already be becoming damaged before installing the original tune file or the stock ecu mapping). I really don't have a lot of details beyond that unfortunately.

-----

Long responses but hopefully I've answered everything. It's frustrating to deal with and to talk about, but I'm doing my best to keep my head level. I really want to be empathetic to all sides of not only the discussion but also the contemplation of what is actually going on here. I've realized (yet again) anger and impatience really doesn't go anywhere at all and I've probably damaged some of my relationship with the shop because of my most recent phone call. However, there's no repairing that at this point, so there's only one thing to do while I wait

I do appreciate both of y'all's responses here and I hope to continue the conversation that's been started here in these last couple of posts, I just wanted to clarify the above because a lot of this is not only financially loaded for me but also emotionally loaded as well.

[dc_wright]

Originally Posted by Arsonism

I don't know if they're big enough people to ask another shop for a 2nd opinion, but I wouldn't disagree with you there. The only thing that the shop has notified me of is that the car is detonating the fuel early and that there is "too much timing" on the car currently which is overheating the pistons and they are slamming into things within the lower block (my understanding is likely more primitive than what they've explained). There is no knock and I was informed by Randy that they do not disable the knock sensors... the computer systems for these motors know how to remove timing in order to prevent a knock and it wont allow certain things to happen if the motor is knocking. They had shown me a photo from a wire camera, much like the ones you'd see in a spy movie, to display the damage that they were beginning to see in the motor (which bothers me that the motor may already be becoming damaged before installing the original tune file or the stock ecu mapping). I really don't have a lot of details beyond that unfortunately.

When the fuel ignites too far before the piston reaches top dead center it's the equivalent of hitting the top of the piston with a sledge hammer. The early firing is actually trying to stop the engine from rotating instead of enhancing the rotation and it's pretty hard on the pistons, the rods, and the rod bearings.

[Vanne]

Wow, ok, I must have forgoten that you had a stock tune on the car when it first imploded..

Then for the FREAKIN life of me I can't understand why on earth they would install a non stock tune, before making sure the rebuilt engine runs properly.. that to me is just stupid.. and Shane, even if you requested this to be done, any sort of shop would have said "ok, how about we do that after we know everything is cool?"

Crazy stuff..

Dropping headers and a tune is 3 hrs work.. tops

Shane, still hoping for a good outcome mate. Hopefully the Christmas season will bring some good cheer.

[Arsonism]

Thanks Vanne, you've kept my head up through a lot of this and I feel like I see a lot of myself in you through all the positive vibes that you spread throughout this forum. I'm hoping that things do wrap up here soon, it's been long journey and I have definitely dictated more than anyone ever should in their personal life. I'll keep y'all posted whenever something new comes about.


Each time I look back into this I seem to have a different fear, now it's that the motor isn't too banged up by the time that they get everything figured out and that I hopefully don't have to purchase a new set of headers.

[Westersund]

I still have the feeling they missaligned the trigger wheel when they assembled the engine.

[dc_wright]

Originally Posted by Westersund

I still have the feeling they missaligned the trigger wheel when they assembled the engine.

The crankshaft trigger wheel is held in place with 3 bolts so it's either in the right position, 120 degrees out of position or 240 degrees out of position. I don't think you could even get the engine to run if it was installed out of position as the timing would be much too far off?
Timing chain off position by a tooth on the crank gear might be a small enough increment the engine would still run but show timing issues the DME couldn't correct for.....

[Arsonism]

I've made them a counter proposal on the bill they've tried to push forward in regards to the "additional repairs" that need to be made, but no solid figure there. I've also made them another offer which I'm waiting for a response on. I'll keep y'all posted. It's still back and forth and nothing is going anywhere.

For sure deploying to Africa in August though, so that's some good news.