VANOS problem?

[MHeavNC]

Any updates mgwatson? Hope things are working out!!

[mgwatson48]

Hey! So I ended taking it back to the dealer again! They changed the MAF temp sensor and think that is the fix. I'm not taking it back until they can verify that it fixes the cold start issue. What a frustrating process... I'm not impressed in the very least with the shop foreman. I had to fight with him to get a rental car after my car sat there for the first month (my car is a US car, so they say I'm not allowed a rental car because of that), and after I went to pick up my car a couple weeks ago and turn in the rental, he refused to reissue a rental car to me when I brought it back for the cold start issue. When this is all said and done I'm going to submit a formal complaint on him to BMW Canada. I'm not impressed with him at all.

[Sephiroth]

You got to find a better dealer for warranty work man. Even if you have to drive a bit.

[mgwatson48]

Originally Posted by 1love

You got to find a better dealer for warranty work man. Even if you have to drive a bit.

There are two dealers in Calgary, the one I took it too is by farrrr the "better" dealer. The car is off warranty now so it's too little, too late unfortunately.

The positive of the whole thing is that my head gasket is covered for years AND my complete VANOS unit is as well, so that's great.

[mgwatson48]

UPDATE: They replaced my IAT sensor... I brought the car home, started it this morning and it did the same thing (took a couple tries to start). My SA said the work wasn't covered under warranty when I went to pick the car up, but I reminded her that this was continuation work for what's been done over the past 4 MONTHS! She made the call to not charge me anything.

I call her back today letting her know that that work didn't fix it and she tells me that she "might" have to charge me ($650) for that work that was just done... She said the warranty department didn't approve the work... I have an official BMW invoice showing nothing was charged and that it was warrantied and I signed a copy of it for their records.

Can they actually charge me if they want to still?

[Finnegan]

So:

1. They still haven't completed the repairs they started under warranty.
2. They're trying to charge you for a "repair" that didn't fix anything.
3. You have an invoice showing zero charges.

Bear in mind I am not a lawyer, and this is purely conjecture and opinion, not fact, nor is it legal advice, or provided as such. Any actions should be considered and weighed by you, and it may be wise to consult with a member of the legal profession in your area regarding any of the issues in this thread.

#1. This may be breech of contract. You had an insurance contract (warranty) that covered X and Y for a particular period. During that period, they agreed to conduct repairs, and did conducted said repairs. However, they did not complete the repairs, or did not complete them correctly, and issues (as the result of the initial issues, or due to errors executed on behalf of the warranty) remain. You may need legal help to get relief or secure your claim.

#2. It looks like he dealership entered into today's repair as a continuation of prior (incomplete/failed) warranty work.

#3. You have a record showing they released the car back into your possession with zero charges. Now they're retroactively trying to claim you owe them for repairs. Did you ever sign-off on an estimate for the repairs, or agree to let them proceed with any kind of understanding that you were liable for costs? If not, and given you have a "paid" invoice for zero dollars, they are probably just out of luck. That's a nice try by them, but they can't just retroactively charge you now for said repairs (unless you agreed, verbally or in writing, to pay). That's no different than if you paid 500 dollars, paid for and had the car released to your possession, and later they decided that wasn't the correct amount, and they wanted to charge you an additional 650 dollars. Now if you promised to pay, or signed off on an estimate with a dollar figure, they may have a claim. Yes, it would be B.S. due to item 1, but they may make things difficult (again this would require some legal help). If you didn't promise to pay, they can't just decided to bill you after the fact. In that case, they released the car to you. Too bad. Tell them to pound sand (politely but firmly, and note that they haven't met their obligations under the warranty contract.) Depending on your answer regarding today's "bill", you may or may not need to pay that (or may or may not need to secure legal help).

IMO, at this point you have two options: continue to fight with BMW NA over their failure to honor their contract, which may require legal help, or consider finding a good indie shop that can correctly diagnose the issues and correct them.

Given that time and time again the dealership has proven they have no idea what's wrong with your car and have no idea how to correct it (other than to blindly swap in new part after new part hoping that corrects the problem). In all likelihood, they've created new problems with this approach due to incorrect installation procedures. Personally, I would not trust them to ever get this right.

Therefore my advice would be to take it to a good indie shop and pay the $$$ for a proper diagnosis. Then decide how to proceed (indie shop or pursue BMW NA and pull in legal help) based on the $$$ to do the repairs correctly. Weight the $$$ of (correctly done repair by the indie) vs. the time and money to fight with BMW NA and the dealership.

[mgwatson48]

Thanks for the reply Finn. I did not agree to any form of payment before bringing the car back to them for this most recent fix, nor was any charges discussed with me before they completed the "fix".

I called BMW Canada and they said that since I own a US car, that my dealership can technically deny any warranty work after the date of my warranty expiry (September 9, 2012). So technially, the dealership can tell ME to pound sand, even though I am now a victim of their incompetance and may now be in possession of a "ticking timebomb", so to speak.

This whole ordeal is quite an inconvenience and I guarantee I will NEVER buy another newish BMW that is still under warranty.

[3point0]

unfortunately, I think Finnegan is right. You've run out of options other than the two he mentions if you want to keep the car. I had a similar issue with a smartcar a couple years ago, but to cut a really long story short, MB Canada eventually replaced the engine when I brought an indy mechanic to show them it was a material failure in the valve stem and I didn't have to pursue it legally.

Good luck whichever way you go

[Finnegan]

Ah, that US car clause is a real PITA. That means the only real option at this point is the indie shop. It might not be a ticking time bomb, and may be very little out of pocket to correct. Just needs someone that knows how to actually fix cars.

Regarding today's charges, if you didn't sign an estimate, they didn't provide anything in terms of potential costs, and they released the car into your possession for zero dollars, technically you should be off the hook. I'd fight it, and remind them that they didn't fix your car correctly under warranty, but you're willing to "let that go" since they're not charging you. Take it to their GM if you need to. I don't know Canadian law, but if they try to collect on you, you may be able to take them to small claims court. (In my state, you must sign an estimate for repairs, and have an accounting of the costs, prior to having a repair completed. If they proceed w/o authorization, it's on their dime by law.)

It all boils down to how much time/effort/$ are worth.

It really stinks how you've been treated during this ordeal, up to and including today. The level of incompetence out there never ceases to amaze me.

[mgwatson48]

Ya, sent an email to the service manager who seems like a really nice guy over the phone. I just said that I'm now put in an awkward situation because I have an appointment to bring the car back on Monday but I don't want to bring it in, only to have them keep the car until I pay the $650... I haven't heard back, so we'll have to see what he says.

[mgwatson48]

UPDATE:
This is how the car starts now when it's completely cold (sat overnight in ~35*F temperature)...

This is the email I got from the service manager after stating my concerns..

"Good morning Mike,

I reviewed this video with our shop foreman, and it appears that your engine is running normally for a cold start. The idle will fluctuate quite a bit on the first few seconds of start up as more fuel is being injected into the cylinders. As a side note a low oil pressure problem would have no effect on the idle quality. Looking at the gauges in the video there was no indication of a low oil pressure problem. Please keep in mind that colder weather, and winter fuels will have an affect on the cold idle as well.

If you want to bring the car in so we can see it in person, we can still do that. For now I will tell your service adviser not to charge you for the IAT sensor we replaced to solve the stalling problem on cold start up.

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns."

Thoughts?

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by mgwatson48

I know that the cams have to be set a certain way to help start the car/build up oil pressure in the VANOS when the car is started, but you would assume the dealer knows this?

It has nothing to do with oil pressure, but yes the cams do index to a position that makes startup the easiest.

[mgwatson48]

Originally Posted by O-cha

It has nothing to do with oil pressure, but yes the cams do index to a position that makes startup the easiest.

Ya, but what's puzzling is that after the first cold start of the day, the car doesn't do this again until it sits overnight. if it was the cam position on startup, wouldnt the car always start with a huge hesitation?

[beta]

Originally Posted by mgwatson48

UPDATE:
This is how the car starts now when it's completely cold (sat overnight in ~35*F temperature)...

Are you using the accelerator when starting?

[mgwatson48]

Originally Posted by beta

Are you using the accelerator when starting?

Nope. In all my videos, the accelerator pedal isn't touched once. It's doing all the stumbling completely on its own.

[beta]

Originally Posted by mgwatson48

Nope. In all my videos, the accelerator pedal isn't touched once. It's doing all the stumbling completely on its own.

When it's really cold I've gotten a little variation in idle, but not to the degree in your video. But then again here the coldest it gets is about 40, so maybe someone from a colder climate can comment.

[steveff4]

That seems pretty normal to me. My car will frequently stall on the initial cold start if I don't feather the accelerator when the temperature drops below 40f.

[mgwatson48]

^^ Interesting!!! This actually helps me a lot knowing this Steve! Would there be ANY chance you would mind taking a quick video of a cold start of your M?

[dubsesd]

mine does something simular on a cold start. not like yours, but it does drop and rise back up again. ill try to make a small video and see if it happens, although i havnt started the car for 2 months since its in storage

[mgwatson48]

That would be awesome if you could snag that on video when you start your car next dub!

I just started my car tonight and it took three cranks to get going again

[elerner61]

I've started my car in temps in the lower 20's. It's always started on the first crank and usually after the engine turns over about 5 times. The colder it is outside it will sometimes "stumble" a little while it starts. I have noticed that the engine speed will immediately dip below 1K rpm but then it quickly rises and settles a little above 1K rpm. It never dips as pronounced as yours does.

The temps have risen hear in the NorthEast for the time being, otherwise I'd pop in the garage right now and make a quick video for you.

Please keep us tuned in. When you finally find the answer it will be great to know about it. It's these niggling type of problems that can take too long to diagnose.

[mgwatson48]

Will do. I sent another email to the service manager but hes out of office until the 16th so I wont hear anything until then.