My M is wrecked.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Bleech

"but only when it's safe to do so"

It simply is not safe to do so if there is ice around a turn that you cannot possibly see before taking the turn. The point is ice or debris do not just materialize out of thin air instantaneously in front of you. If you cannot fully observe the road surface to the extent that you can reduce your speed in a timely manner to deal with it, you are being unsafe (driving too fast for the conditions)--especially if you are cornering "tightly."

[Bleech]

Originally Posted by lucid

It simply is not safe to do so if there is ice around a turn that you cannot possibly see before taking the turn. The point is ice or debris do not just materialize out of thin air instantaneously in front of you. If you cannot fully observe the road surface to the extent that you can reduce your speed in a timely manner to deal with it, you are being unsafe (driving too fast for the conditions)--especially if you are cornering "tightly."

Well then I must not know how to drive or "have just been lucky" in my 22 years of accident free driving (apart from a fender bender on a roundabout when I was 20). Sounds like a cliche but it's true. Also bear in mind that most of my driving has been in the UK, so I've grown up with windy roads often covered in gravel & ice.
Please don't try to make out that I'm some kind of loonatic at the wheel. Like I pointed out, I only like to have fun when it's safe and my experience & driving record clearly shows that I know when it's safe.
I was mearly pointing out that I like to have fun when I'm driving (when it's safe zzz) and surely that's the point of having a sports car? Especially an M? Otherwise we'd all own a Prius and a track car.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Bleech

Well then I must not know how to drive or "have just been lucky" in my 22 years of accident free driving (apart from a fender bender on a roundabout when I was 20). Sounds like a cliche but it's true. Also bear in mind that most of my driving has been in the UK, so I've grown up with windy roads often covered in gravel & ice.
Please don't try to make out that I'm some kind of loonatic at the wheel. Like I pointed out, I only like to have fun when it's safe and my experience & driving record clearly shows that I know when it's safe.
I was mearly pointing out that I like to have fun when I'm driving (when it's safe zzz) and surely that's the point of having a sports car? Especially an M? Otherwise we'd all own a Prius and a track car.

I didn't call you a lunatic. I don't know you or the specifics of how you drive. I am responding to what you stated.

"If you hit some gravel or ice and the car starts to go" when coming out of a turn, that's due to driver error. Period.

If you put yourself in situations where that can happen to you, then I'd call you an unsafe driver. I don't know if you do that or not. If you do, and are accident free, then you are indeed lucky.

There are some measured ways of having fun with the car without putting one's self in such situations, so the Prius rhetoric is irrelevant. The car is actually much more fun to drive than a Prius even if one were to drive at the speed limit all the time. Having said that, yes there actually isn't a whole lot one can do to physically enjoy the kind of performance these cars can offer on public roads (some people derive satisfaction from just owning them, which is fine by me). Why is that a revelation?

[imom]

Originally Posted by lucid

I am not exaggerating at all with the ZR1 comment. You said a sport bike would be safer for a teenager because it can handle and stop better. I am saying then we should hand teenagers ZR1s because they indeed handle and stop much faster than Corollas. Perfectly legitimate comparison. The power/weight ratio of a sport bike is through the roof, the way the ZR1’s power/weight ratio is. Why back out of what you said? So, by claiming that my ZR1 comparison is an exaggeration and not fair, you are basically admitting that high performance cars should not be driven by teenagers (with the exception of what you consider to be a high performance car). Then, what is your point all along this discussion? You are contradicting yourself.

Finally, I’ll add one more thing to my list of things you don’t understand: torque. Z4M has significantly more torque than a 3.0si at the wheels at any given rpm above 1500rpm in the same gear. You don’t understand what a dyno plot represents, and I don’t want to write 2 pages on how to arrive at actual wheel torque numbers from a dyno plot by using gear ratios. So much for your technical background.

Lucid...I'm not backing out on anything. I believe that you believe what you say is correct as many others. My example is that if you give a kid a scooter to ride on the streets of LA...it's more dangerous than riding a motorcycle. I've never said any different or contradicted myself. Lets get to root of the question. Would I let my kid ride a scooter? The answer is no. If he or she was mature enough...then I would make the time and made sure the education was there to let them ride a motorcycle than...but in general riding in LA is dangerous...not because of the capability of the machine, but the fact that drivers dont' see you cut you off or squeeze you in when you split lanes. When I used to ride...I would always have to defensively ride...I've had several times when driver on opposing lane turn left and other times would cut me off by moving into my lane with me already taking that space...so I try not to drive in people's blind spots...just common sense things. If I was on a scooter...if I wanted to gas my way out or stop... it's very slow to get my out of those spots. Sport bike, you can stop much faster or pass quickly out of the way.

I've never driven a ZR1, but I can imagine it can break traction rather easily without traction control. Thinking about it...a scooter is very easy to ride vs. a sport bike. So a ZR1 may be as difficult...I can see why some readers disagree with me. But the M is a very drivable car unless we are talking over 4K and going wild.

I don't disagree that SSKE92 messed up judging road conditions. The point I was making that people say he shouldn't be in X car. If he was in a corolla you don't think that he wouldn't be driving 50 at that time? The only key factor when you have a fast car is acceleration, handling, and braking: going excessively faster than you should...that's all driver...not the car. Since we are talking 50MPH...lets remove the car from the equation and this is all driver.

To me a sweeping turn is like a freeway off ramp to a corner stop or hard corner turn. So generally people are going from 80 to 0 mph yes? In that sweeping turn...don't people go about 50 mph in those turns? Is this really car dependent? I do agree with you that you shouldn't be driving faster than you can see or judge. Not sure why you need to question my driving ability...I don't wreck my cars, though since you track your car...I have no doubt your driving abilities surpasses mine....how much more? I haven't a clue. But the point was that this is driver's fault...not because it's a sports car...he may be inexperience, but it had less to do about the car than the driver. I would say that when you drive a sports car, you can go faster without realizing it because it handles so well...you don't even know your going faster until you look down at the speedo. But this was 50MPH is no different in any car... this is a road...not a 1/4 mile track where you run out of road before it ends. If a driver wants to go 50MPH what is the difference? If you say he was going 150MPH there much fewer cars that can do that. But we are discussing 50MPH before you use logic to say he was excessive. He may have been inexperience in that particular instance...but what does the car have to do with it?

Finally far as your dyno plots...theoretically you may be right, but more than one who have driven both Z4s feel the low end the 3.0SI had more torque. I know that when I drove my 3.0SI in city driving...it feel a little more pep. I don't have technical numbers I can only tell and see why some have supercharged their cars or change out the rear end: After 4K RPM there's no question the M is alive. In city driving...I rather drive the 3.0SI. On the track...no doubt the M is king.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by imom

I don't disagree that SSKE92 messed up judging road conditions. The point I was making that people say he shouldn't be in X car. If he was in a corolla you don't think that he wouldn't be driving 50 at that time? The only key factor when you have a fast car is acceleration, handling, and braking: going excessively faster than you should...that's all driver...not the car. Since we are talking 50MPH...lets remove the car from the equation and this is all driver.

No, the car is very much a part of the equation. That's the whole point. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a debate around this issue. You've been saying that the type of car a teenager drives will not affect his/her judgment. And I won't repeat what has already been said many times in this thread in opposition that.

To get to the bottom of that, again, I will ask you one very simple question. Please answer yes or no: If you had a 16 old and a ZR1 in the garage, would you hand the keys over to him/her to drive around with his/her friends?

I don't care if you are a better driver than I am or if M is king or not. I never said anything about my own driving ability. I really could not care less in the context of this discussion. Honestly.

With regard to dyno numbers, what I am saying is not theoretical. It is fact based on empirical evidence. Perception does not constitute fact when it comes to cars obeying the laws of physics. If you want the facts on that, you can go here, http://www.rri.se/index.php?DN=29, download the plots for the two cars you referenced, and inspect the "Total wheel torque" columns (not the "Total wheel torque/total reduction" colums).

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by imom

I don't disagree that SSKE92 messed up judging road conditions. The point I was making that people say he shouldn't be in X car. If he was in a corolla you don't think that he wouldn't be driving 50 at that time? The only key factor when you have a fast car is acceleration, handling, and braking: going excessively faster than you should...that's all driver...not the car. Since we are talking 50MPH...lets remove the car from the equation and this is all driver.
.

I think you are missing the point of what he was trying to say. Yes, 50mph is 50mph whether in a an M, Carolla, or space ship. However, would he have been going that fast if he was in a Carolla? Probably not because it doesnt inspire as much confidence/need for speed as an M car. Like another poster pointed out earlier - people change their driving habits based on what they are driving (i.e. the poster montioned he drives his Expedition differently than his M, as he should since the driving characteristics are different and the Expedition doesnt beg to be pushed to the limit).

[chickdr]

Originally Posted by lucid

With regard to dyno numbers, what I am saying is not theoretical. It is fact based on empirical evidence. Perception does not constitute fact when it comes to cars obeying the laws of physics. If you want the facts on that, you can go here, http://www.rri.se/index.php?DN=29, download the plots for the two cars you referenced, and inspect the "Total wheel torque" columns (not the "Total wheel torque/total reduction" colums).

Very good data at that site. A couple of things I did notice when looking at the suggested graphs. The 3.0si DOES have a torque advantage over the 3.2 until around 1500rpms. This along with the 200lbs less weight it carries around certainly gives it a head start from a dead stop. The M will quickly eliminate this of course, but I can easily see why si drivers feel their cars are better suited to city driving. I remember the first Z4 I drove, which was an 08 si steptronic, had an amazingly impressive acceleration curve from lights. The "performance valuation" also shows a higher number for the si's torque rate, 0.96, compared the M which receives a 0.94.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Like another poster pointed out earlier - people change their driving habits based on what they are driving (i.e. the poster montioned he drives his Expedition differently than his M, as he should since the driving characteristics are different and the Expedition doesnt beg to be pushed to the limit).

That was me actually. I posted too much in this thread.

Finnegan said he experiences the same thing in his Escape Hybrid vs Z4M. It is an urge one needs to control--not a very concious thing. I often find myself in that situation in the Z4M, and back down. I bought my first performance car when I was 22, and I sure couldn't keep myself in check then as well as I can now. I can't imagine how it would have been if I had that car at even a younger age. And, I was considered mature and responsible with respect to my peers.

This is not a discovery. Insurance companies are obviously well aware of it, and the free market prices risk accordingly, which discourages young people from driving high performance cars. (There is not much difference in the liability insurance I pay on the Expedition vs Z4M now at 40, but that sure wouldn't be the case for a teenager).

Imom is correct in that this could have happened even if the OP was driving a Corrola as well. However, as you state the chances of it happening would be smaller. There is no way of knowing if this exact incident would have happened on that exact day if the OP was in a Corrola or not, but I don't think that is the kind of hypothesis a parent should test.

[Hawkeye]

Boom, I own you suckas until you hit 1500rpms.

I definitely drive my truck way different than my car. I putz around and really do not speed at all, especially through any corner, haha. Without sport seats and with excessive body roll it just isn't fun.

On ym truck forum I have not read a single post about someone going too fast and losing control on a street. I hear all the time about "I was mudding and hit something" and stuff like that so each vehicle has it's setbacks, but the type of vehicle matters a lot.

[santov]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Boom, I own you suckas until you hit 1500rpms.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

I definitely drive my truck way different than my car. I putz around and really do not speed at all, especially through any corner, haha. Without sport seats and with excessive body roll it just isn't fun.

I was shocked at the amount of damage the car sustained. I wanted to post my condolenses and best wishes for the OP and his friend, but the soap-box tone that many posters here have taken discouraged me until Hawkeye made me smile.

Seems like the OP realized what's happens and lesson learned, not despite his age, but especially for his age.

I hope for a speedy recovery for your friend.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by chickdr

Very good data at that site. A couple of things I did notice when looking at the suggested graphs. The 3.0si DOES have a torque advantage over the 3.2 until around 1500rpms. This along with the 200lbs less weight it carries around certainly gives it a head start from a dead stop. The M will quickly eliminate this of course, but I can easily see why si drivers feel their cars are better suited to city driving. I remember the first Z4 I drove, which was an 08 si steptronic, had an amazingly impressive acceleration curve from lights. The "performance valuation" also shows a higher number for the si's torque rate, 0.96, compared the M which receives a 0.94.

Yes, as I mentioned the 3.0si does have more torque below 1500rpms. I don't know if it is quicker off the line or not, but I doubt it. The "torque rates" don't have anything to do with the actual performance of the cars. Just a measure of what the car put down at the wheels compared to what BMW claimed at the crank.

Honestly, I don't know why we are comparing the torque specs of these cars. I was just pointing out that the statement made by imom regarding torque was incorrect.

My point is more about the character of M cars that we all buy into. Race bred, high tech, high performance, advanced suspension, motorsport, blah, blah, blah. As if they are actual race cars. But, yes we all buy into that emotionally to some extent (I sure do), which establishes the character of the machines, which in return affects how we interact with them. That's a fundamental principle in product design, and is intentionally engineered into the product. In many respects, it is desirable, in others, not so much...

[Twisted Six]

Originally Posted by chickdr

Very good data at that site. A couple of things I did notice when looking at the suggested graphs. The 3.0si DOES have a torque advantage over the 3.2 until around 1500rpms. This along with the 200lbs less weight it carries around certainly gives it a head start from a dead stop. The M will quickly eliminate this of course, but I can easily see why si drivers feel their cars are better suited to city driving. I remember the first Z4 I drove, which was an 08 si steptronic, had an amazingly impressive acceleration curve from lights. The "performance valuation" also shows a higher number for the si's torque rate, 0.96, compared the M which receives a 0.94.

Well, one might THINK so .....but if you consider the end result of the timing in which higher said torque takes place and for what outcome.....maybe not.

Consider this.....in a distance of a quarter mile >>

The Z4MC =13.5 seconds standing 1/4 mile.
The Z4siC =13.8 seconds standing 1/4 mile.

The Z4MC =103.6 mph in standing 1/4 mile.
The Z4siC =100.02 mph in standing 1/4 mile.

With ONLY 3 miles an hour faster through the big end of the 1/4......thats certainly not much to brag about in the way of the M's added 70hp trump IMHO, anyway.....thoughts ??

Now ,while I'll concur...that in a full time attack at any given track...much more is to be taken into account within the use of torque and the M's brakes.....the rest is up to the drivers seat time and components familiarity.

Maybe a couple of guys from this forum who have owned and tracked their S.I's prior to trading for the M variant have time slips to compare to help us see the real difference aside from seat of the pants assumptions ??

[Diokaef]

Why everyone is like starting a fight over something that is nobody business. The OP posted here in order to clear his mind and not to be judged or to get support on who's fault is. Please let's keep this thread to our wishes and prayers for recovery.

Thank's

[imom]

Originally Posted by lucid

To get to the bottom of that, again, I will ask you one very simple question. Please answer yes or no: If you had a 16 old and a ZR1 in the garage, would you hand the keys over to him/her to drive around with his/her friends?

Lucid to answer your question. YES: If he or she has been on a track all their lives ...yes. If my kid was used that kind of power. The M is a very drivable daily car. If my kid had only driver's ed...obviously no..not only to the M but to even the corolla..until I know they are capable and responsible. I'm not going to raise more points or argue more...just time consuming arguing with you and seems pointless. You're not the only engineer on this thread...but I don't go assuming your ignorance or such...you and a few other members have said such things as you're wrong or you don't have a M1 license... blah blah blah. I'm not the type to argue just to argue, so I'm going to stop now.

I thought of this thread was started as what Diokaef had mentioned for SSKE92 to get things off his chest and what I read was people commenting about his parents decision making. Really annoying crap. I shouldn't have commented and just let it be. My intent was to steer people away from these diatribes.

I deal with engineers on a daily basis and including ones from caltech and technion...and yes I am one. I don't go spouting off assumptions or always assuming my way is the only way.

I remember when Diokaef just joined this forum...the amount of crap he received trying to sell M parts from the track car and the comments he got. Every thread it seems he tries to help out the forum he got some crap. This forum has been very helpful... I see it as a positive...but some threads like this...I'm gonna remain quiet. I'm not going to respond to anymore comments to this thread...very counter productive. Thanks for your inputs.

[VinnieAces]

holy crap over 3 days this thread turned into a battlegrounds, mods should just delete/lock this

[BlackMoupe]

I got to see Carlos for the first time since the accident. He was in great shape. They just reduced his medication and will be taking him out of the Coma over the next few days. I've been spending a lot of time with his 3 siblings this week to keep their minds off things and get them out of the house. He has a very kind and loving family, I love them like my own.

[tekmoe]

That is really good news!! The health of a loved one is more important than anything else.

[BlackMoupe]

Sidenote-Emmy (my car) was named after his little sister, Emmy. I always joke that in ten years I'm gonna come back and marry her, she's 10 haha.

[Twisted Six]

Originally Posted by SSKE92

Sidenote-Emmy (my car) was named after his little sister, Emmy. I always joke that in ten years I'm gonna come back and marry her, she's 10 haha.

Awesome news Shaheen !!Keep your spirits high as the weeks carry on and check in often.

Never-mind the banter and mis-direction of the thread...its all been in everyone's own version of introspect and diversion.

A little dis-cussing if you will,lol.

Cheers,Vinny

[Finnegan]

Great news SSK! I hope the next few days continue to provide good news about Carlos' recovery.

It's wonderful how you are doing your part to support Carlos' siblings. Totally cool and it displays a level of maturity I think many adults would find hard to match.

Carlos is in a lot of folk's thoughts and prayers (mine included). So are you. Hang in there--you're quite a stand-up guy.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by imom

Lucid to answer your question. YES: If he or she has been on a track all their lives ...yes. If my kid was used that kind of power. The M is a very drivable daily car. If my kid had only driver's ed...obviously no..not only to the M but to even the corolla..until I know they are capable and responsible. I'm not going to raise more points or argue more...just time consuming arguing with you and seems pointless. You're not the only engineer on this thread...but I don't go assuming your ignorance or such...you and a few other members have said such things as you're wrong or you don't have a M1 license... blah blah blah. I'm not the type to argue just to argue, so I'm going to stop now.

Yes, I think you are wrong on several accounts. The reason I am taking the time to state this is because things like this are more likely to happen when people do as you suggest.

Originally Posted by imom

I thought of this thread was started as what Diokaef had mentioned for SSKE92 to get things off his chest and what I read was people commenting about his parents decision making. Really annoying crap. I shouldn't have commented and just let it be. My intent was to steer people away from these diatribes.

And you did that by saying, "If I had a kid..I would rather give him or her a sport bike than a scooter or moped."

And then when people (not me initially) disagreed, by claiming they didn't have "common sense"?

Did you actually read what you wrote?

I didn't say anything about my background, which is irrelevant. I am merely responding to what you wrote because of the reason I gave above.

This is a discussion forum. On a controversial topic such as this one, there will be strong opinions because these issues affect the safety of all of us. I don't know the OP's specific set of intentions for starting this thread, but once it started, people are free to voice opinion as long as it is related to what has been posted. That said, it is a private site, and the admins can intervene if they want.

This is not "nobody's business" as claimed by Diakoeff because whatever happened happened on a public road. It is ironic that one of his responses to the incident (while trying to shut the discussion down) was "S**** happens," and his sig says, "Speed limits only exist if you get caught." Is that what he would say if he were to lose a family member in such an accident?

This is all very real for the OP, and the passanger, who seems to be fortunately getting better, which I am really glad to hear about. But it is not truly real for people who haven't been affected by something similar. My guess is you would think very differently about most of what you said if you had been touched by something similar personally. I am in no way claiming you don't care, but I am pointing out that one's degree of proximity of something like this changes one's viewpoint on all of this. Unfortunately, I am saying that as someone who has gone through such a transformation.

[RBull]

Well said. I agree completely. I speak with plenty of "memorable and not so proud" experiences at a tender age.

I'll also go a step further and say I would like to see licenses granted only to those above 18 years of age.

To the OP best wishes to you and Carlos. Good to hear things are coming together.

Originally Posted by Huz-Z

It seems that based on the comments here on the character of the OP, that he is indeed a very sensible young man. I don't think anyone can argue with that.

But recognize also that with age comes experience and a level of maturity that you don't have at 17. For example, if you were to ask an actuary working at an insurance company about the rate of automobile accidents for teenage males versus the rate for guys between 30 - 35, then I expect that you will find that the rate is much higher for the younger group.

To your specific coments about teenage guys who are highly trained and accomplished and perhaps semi-professional car and bike drivers, yes, I agree that their skill level is likely such that they can properly and safely operate a sport bike or an M car in varied road conditions. But most 17 year old males just have the basic rudimentary driving skills, enough to get their license and head to a burger joint in the family Accord, Camry or Corolla. So for the vast majority of the 17 year olds in that latter group, I stand by my view that they SHOULD NOT have a sport bike or an M car at that stage in their life.

So. There are an awful lot of teenage idiots out there in cars. It seems that the OP is clearly not one of them. I'm sure everyone here recognizes that and wishes him and his passenger a speedy recovery and safe and happy driving in the years to come.