My M is wrecked.

[lucid]

If he wasn't racing anyone, he wasn't racing anyone. I don't think the testimony of the jeep driver would hold much water unless he can point at something specific he saw, and based on what SSK said, it appears there was nothing to see in that respect. Driving faster than conditions allow does not mean racing. As far as I can tell racing involves multiple vehicles.

[Twisted Six]

Originally Posted by Diokaef

From the other thread

I too have spoken with SSKE92 and felt the same way Diokaef did.

I might add....My GF works in the SICU brain trauma unit at Mission Hospital and your friend couldn't be in better hands at this time. They are one of the top brain critical care facilities in the USA.

SSKE92....I just texted you.

Godspeed, Vinny

[Bullet]

Im glad you're okay man, and we r all pullin for Carlos. Txt me if you need to talk

[Diokaef]

Same here^^^

[imom]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Wrong thread?

A sportbike for a teenager is a much much worse idea than a scooter. Wow, can't believe anyone would actually think that was better. Must not be a rider himself.

Actually I have my class M1 license and I have ridden sports bike years back. So I do know what I'm talking about. For all the other posters, I'll clear it up is that if you plan to give a teenager a scooter...rather give them a sport bike to ride than a scooter. Clearly it's people not using common sense into the discussion and only jumping to conclusions. What will stop faster a scooter or a sport bike? Same goes with acceleration or handling? If the rider or driver is not mature enough...don't let them ride or drive. If you do let them... give them something that will get them out of trouble. Getting into trouble... all vehicles can go over 80+ mph yes? Isn't that enough to get the rider or driver into trouble? Do you know how many professional racers under 18 racing like the Hayden and Bostrom brothers? They are older now, but they were kids racing against adults...competent riders.

My point is that it's not the age, but the mental capacity of the driver and it's not the car that will get yourself into trouble. A stock M coupe isn't a monster of a car that have 600 HP and difficult to drive or have handling issues. At low speeds, the M is an incredible handling car and can stop on a dime.

I rather give a teen or young adult a car to save them from trouble than not give them the tools to do so. 50 into 35 zone is not an issue for the M. The fact that the original poster misjudge the road conditions and could of happen to an adult as well...if you run into black ice as example. Had he gone 70 into a 35mph....yeah it's reckless... but I'm just reading all of this and seeing people jump to conclusions...

As a parent or someone responsible to give someone a car or bike, you don't recklessly give someone you don't trust to do the right thing. My point being is that whether it's a slow car or bike...they can kill themselves or get hurt. I just thought for people to comment "oh how could their parents give them such a car" SSKE92 knows what happened...I'm not there to say whether he was speeding or not. I'm just pointing out that it's not the car that will kill or hurt the people inside the car. It's the driver mental and physical capability. If you hit gravel, sand, ice, or go too hot into a corner...not much you can do but to wait until it's over..based on what SSKE92 said low rpms... that puts him around 50 MPH. Doesn't seem excessive.

That was my point I was making: Not the parents...not the car..not the age. He wasn't going 50+ into a hard corner and I don't know the road, all I see is the car and the aftermath...so I can't jump to conclusions. Just from what SSKE92 mentioned...just seems like misjudging road conditions than speeding. Even then...I've heard stories from forum members how the car itself saved them because of handling. IF I was a parent, I rather give my kid the right tools to do the job...but if I knew he or she was reckless... obviously I won't let him or her drive. I was just annoyed to see people bash on his folks for letting him buy his car and working for it. To me, I would be more than proud if my kid would work for a car than just ask for one.

You're entitled to your opinions...I'm just offering mine.

[CJR926]

Originally Posted by imom

Actually I have my class M1 license and I have ridden sports bike years back. So I do know what I'm talking about. For all the other posters, I'll clear it up is that if you plan to give a teenager a scooter...rather give them a sport bike to ride than a scooter. Clearly it's people not using common sense into the discussion and only jumping to conclusions. What will stop faster a scooter or a sport bike? Same goes with acceleration or handling? If the rider or driver is not mature enough...don't let them ride or drive. If you do let them... give them something that will get them out of trouble. Getting into trouble... all vehicles can go over 80 mph yes? Isn't that enough to get the rider or driver into trouble? Do you know how many professional racers under 18 racing like the Hayden and Bostrom brothers? They are older now, but they were kids racing against adults...competent riders.

My point is that it's not the age, but the mental capacity of the driver and it's not the car that will get yourself into trouble. A stock M coupe isn't a monster of a car that have 600 HP and difficult to drive or have handling issues. At low speeds, the M is an incredible handling car and can stop on a dime.

I rather give a teen or young adult a car to save them from trouble than not give them the tools to do so. 50 into 35 zone is not an issue for the M. The fact that the original poster misjudge the road conditions and could of happen to an adult as well...if you run into black ice as example. Had he gone 70 into a 35mph....yeah it's reckless... but I'm just reading all of this and seeing people jump to conclusions...

As a parent or someone responsible to give someone a car or bike, you don't recklessly give someone you don't trust to do the right thing. My point being is that whether it's a slow car or bike...they can kill themselves or get hurt. I just thought for people to comment "oh how could their parents give them such a car" SSKE92 knows what happened...I'm not there to say whether he was speeding or not. I'm just pointing out that it's not the car that will kill or hurt the people inside the car. It's the driver mental and physical capability. If you hit gravel, sand, ice, or go too hot into a corner...not much you can do but to wait until it's over..based on what SSKE92 said low rpms... that puts him around 50 MPH. Doesn't seem excessive.

That was my point I was making: Not the parents...not the car..not the age. He wasn't going 50 into a hard corner and I don't know the road, all I see is the car and the aftermath...so I can't jump to conclusions. Just from what SSKE92 mentioned...just seems like misjudging road conditions than speeding. Even then...I've heard stories from forum members how the car itself saved them because of handling. IF I was a parent, I rather give my kid the right tools to do the job...but if I knew he or she was reckless... obviously I won't let him or her drive. I was just annoyed to see people bash on his folks for letting him buy his car and working for it. To me, I would be more than proud if my kid would work for a car than just ask for one.

You're entitled to your opinions...I'm just offering mine.

1 FYI he was paying for the car.

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by imom

Actually I have my class M1 license and I have ridden sports bike years back. So I do know what I'm talking about. For all the other posters, I'll clear it up is that if you plan to give a teenager a scooter...rather give them a sport bike to ride than a scooter. Clearly it's people not using common sense into the discussion and only jumping to conclusions. What will stop faster a scooter or a sport bike? Same goes with acceleration or handling? If the rider or driver is not mature enough...don't let them ride or drive. If you do let them... give them something that will get them out of trouble. Getting into trouble... all vehicles can go over 80+ mph yes? Isn't that enough to get the rider or driver into trouble? Do you know how many professional racers under 18 racing like the Hayden and Bostrom brothers? They are older now, but they were kids racing against adults...competent riders.

My point is that it's not the age, but the mental capacity of the driver and it's not the car that will get yourself into trouble. A stock M coupe isn't a monster of a car that have 600 HP and difficult to drive or have handling issues. At low speeds, the M is an incredible handling car and can stop on a dime.

I rather give a teen or young adult a car to save them from trouble than not give them the tools to do so. 50 into 35 zone is not an issue for the M. The fact that the original poster misjudge the road conditions and could of happen to an adult as well...if you run into black ice as example. Had he gone 70 into a 35mph....yeah it's reckless... but I'm just reading all of this and seeing people jump to conclusions...

As a parent or someone responsible to give someone a car or bike, you don't recklessly give someone you don't trust to do the right thing. My point being is that whether it's a slow car or bike...they can kill themselves or get hurt. I just thought for people to comment "oh how could their parents give them such a car" SSKE92 knows what happened...I'm not there to say whether he was speeding or not. I'm just pointing out that it's not the car that will kill or hurt the people inside the car. It's the driver mental and physical capability. If you hit gravel, sand, ice, or go too hot into a corner...not much you can do but to wait until it's over..based on what SSKE92 said low rpms... that puts him around 50 MPH. Doesn't seem excessive.

That was my point I was making: Not the parents...not the car..not the age. He wasn't going 50+ into a hard corner and I don't know the road, all I see is the car and the aftermath...so I can't jump to conclusions. Just from what SSKE92 mentioned...just seems like misjudging road conditions than speeding. Even then...I've heard stories from forum members how the car itself saved them because of handling. IF I was a parent, I rather give my kid the right tools to do the job...but if I knew he or she was reckless... obviously I won't let him or her drive. I was just annoyed to see people bash on his folks for letting him buy his car and working for it. To me, I would be more than proud if my kid would work for a car than just ask for one.

You're entitled to your opinions...I'm just offering mine.

It seems that based on the comments here on the character of the OP, that he is indeed a very sensible young man. I don't think anyone can argue with that.

But recognize also that with age comes experience and a level of maturity that you don't have at 17. For example, if you were to ask an actuary working at an insurance company about the rate of automobile accidents for teenage males versus the rate for guys between 30 - 35, then I expect that you will find that the rate is much higher for the younger group.

To your specific coments about teenage guys who are highly trained and accomplished and perhaps semi-professional car and bike drivers, yes, I agree that their skill level is likely such that they can properly and safely operate a sport bike or an M car in varied road conditions. But most 17 year old males just have the basic rudimentary driving skills, enough to get their license and head to a burger joint in the family Accord, Camry or Corolla. So for the vast majority of the 17 year olds in that latter group, I stand by my view that they SHOULD NOT have a sport bike or an M car at that stage in their life.

So. There are an awful lot of teenage idiots out there in cars. It seems that the OP is clearly not one of them. I'm sure everyone here recognizes that and wishes him and his passenger a speedy recovery and safe and happy driving in the years to come.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by imom

just seems like misjudging road conditions than speeding.

People keep on missing the point about this one. Speeding and misjuding the road conditions are very much related. You are much more likely to misjudge the road conditions when you speed because:

1. Everything happens faster and by the time you discover the conditions, you have less time to react,

2. If you lose control because of the misjudgement, you will do so at a higher speed and experience much more of an impact (kinetic energy is proporational to v^2).

Yes, it doesn't sound like he was doing anything wreckless (if he was, he most likely would have been arrested as that would be a criminal act), but it does seem like he was driving faster than he should.

I strongly disagree with pretty much the rest of your post. I already said it is about the attitude the thing invokes in people and not the thing itself. I sure am a different driver when I am in my Expedition as compared to my Z4M. And, no I am not talking about the mechanical limits of the Expedition being low. It is more than capable of cornering much much faster than I drive it and speeding. My attitude is simply different because the thing does not scream "I am made to go fast, and should be driven so!" at me. It says pretty much the opposite. In general, young people will have a harder time sorting that kind of thing out. I sure did.

[Hawkeye]

A sportbike will stop a little faster, but not significantly faster than a scooter. A scooter handles MUCH better at lower speeds (<40 mph). As for acceleration, that is what usually gets people into more trouble rather than out of it.

You are entitled to your opinion, which is good, cause I am sure you are in the 1% of people who think that way.

[chickdr]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

A sportbike will stop a little faster, but not significantly faster than a scooter. A scooter handles MUCH better at lower speeds (<40 mph). As for acceleration, that is what usually gets people into more trouble rather than out of it.

You are entitled to your opinion, which is good, cause I am sure you are in the 1% of people who think that way.

Ain't that the truth!

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Huz-Z

It seems that based on the comments here on the character of the OP, that he is indeed a very sensible young man. I don't think anyone can argue with that.

But recognize also that with age comes experience and a level of maturity that you don't have at 17. For example, if you were to ask an actuary working at an insurance company about the rate of automobile accidents for teenage males versus the rate for guys between 30 - 35, then I expect that you will find that the rate is much higher for the younger group.

To your specific coments about teenage guys who are highly trained and accomplished and perhaps semi-professional car and bike drivers, yes, I agree that their skill level is likely such that they can properly and safely operate a sport bike or an car in varied road conditions. But most 17 year old males just have the basic rudimentary driving skills, enough to get their license and head to a burger joint in the family Accord, Camry or Corolla. So for the vast majority of the 17 year olds in that latter group, I stand by my view that they SHOULD NOT have a sport bike or an M car at that stage in their life.

So. There are an awful lot of teenage idiots out there in cars. It seems that the OP is clearly not one of them. I'm sure everyone here recognizes that and wishes him and his passenger a speedy recovery and safe and happy driving in the years to come.

+1 I could not agree more.

Originally Posted by lucid

People keep on missing the point about this one. Speeding and misjuding the road conditions are very much related. You are much more likely to misjudge the road conditions when you speed because:

1. Everything happens faster and by the time you discover the conditions, you have less time to react,

2. If you lose control because of the misjudgement, you will do so at a higher speed and experience much more of an impact (kinetic energy is proporational to v^2).

Yes, it doesn't sound like he was doing anything wreckless (if he was, he most likely would have been arrested as that would be a criminal act), but it does seem like he was driving faster than he should.

I strongly disagree with pretty much the rest of your post. I already said it is about the attitude the thing invokes in people and not the thing itself. I sure am a different driver when I am in my Expedition as compared to my Z4M. And, no I am not talking about the mechanical limits of the Expedition being low. It is more than capable of cornering much much faster than I drive it and speeding. My attitude is simply different because the thing does not scream "I am made to go fast, and should be driven so!" at me. It says pretty much the opposite. In general, young people will have a harder time sorting that kind of thing out. I sure did.

And indeed that may have been the case here given what the OP said in any earlier post. By all accounts--other forum member's who have met him, the OP's posts where he clearly owned his actions and didn't try to find excuses/blame others--he is a mature, thoughtful, and highly responsible guy with qualities and traits that are to be respected. It looks like this was a mistake on a road that is very unforgiving (given the number of issues that occur on that stretch of road). The road magnified the consequences of the mistake--but it's also a road that says "danger" too given the narrowness of the road, the chance of debris, and the road's infamous history--the difference appears to be the car spoke louder than the road in the OP's ear.

The car does beg to be driven fast. I feel the pull (and I sure other do as well) and like Lucid said I drive differently that I did when we had an Escape Hybrid which pulls you to drive slower and more gently since it's "green". The pull is very very hard to resist and more years of driving experience make it easier to fight that pull and/or moderate it to take conditions (weather, road surface, visibility, road history, traffic) into account and keep the speed down. If/when you're liberal with the throttle these things are taken into account as well.

Age doesn't guarantee that there will be a greater ability to resist the pull but it the probability is that with an older driver there's more consideration of risk accounted for.

This isn't really "opinion". As Huz-Z points out the statistics tell the story. There's a reason insurance rates for sports cars are higher, rates for younger drivers are higher, and rates for young sports car drivers are much higher still. The statistics on this unforgiving road tell a similar story: younger drivers comprise almost the entire cohort of those have gotten into some kind of trouble there over the past 20 years.

The OP was well prepared and trained and again I have no doubt he is a very responsible fellow and great guy. That's what really bothers me about this whole thing--here is a great kid--one who unlike many today is accountable for his actions and had his act together. A kid with a bright future who is going through a very difficult time in his life.

My wish would to have spared him this--to have spared him making this mistake on this stretch of road and the only thing I can think of that would have helped along that line is a different vehicle. One that did not whisper and at times shout "drive me fast". My only hope/wish at this point is for the speedy and full recovery of his friend. And for the OP's recovery as well--this is a heavy burden for anyone to bear. My thoughts are with him, his family, his friend, and his friend's family.

[Twisted Six]

No doubt, at this time....SSKE92 is hearing only banter from this thread as his thoughts and nerves rest upon his friends recovery path.

I for one have been most impressed with his fortitude and maturity at such a n early age.....it is RARE that I see teens admit ANYTHING let alone a responsibility experience such as this.

If we could all only raise such children that remain graceful.

Godspeed with Carlos and his Family's healing....as well as your personal peace to come SSKE92.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Dark Schnitzer

No doubt, at this time....SSKE92 is hearing only banter from this thread as his thoughts and nerves rest upon his friends recovery path.

I for one have been most impressed with his fortitude and maturity at such a n early age.....it is RARE that I see teens admit ANYTHING let alone a responsibility experience such as this.

If we could all only raise such children that remain graceful.

Godspeed with Carlos and his Family's healing....as well as your personal peace to come SSKE92.

And point heard.

[Bleech]

The way some of you guys talk on here you'd of thought you've have never put your foot down, taken a corner a bit quicker than is allowed, kept to the speed limit 100% of the time, and basically never had any fun in your car! It's a sports car at the end of the day, if you don't want to have any fun I'm sure you would of opted for a Prius.

I'm not condoning racing or excessive speeding. I'd say 99% of the time I keep to speed limits, drive safely and courteously (Apart from the saftey aspect, It's too expensive these days). But the other 1% I enjoy a little burn, a bit of tight cornering and enjoy driving my car what it was designed for, but only when it's safe to do so. I'm 40 now, so I'd like to think I know when those times are right. But I don't think age comes into it if you hit some gravel or ice and the car starts to go, it's pretty much out of your control (to an extent).

I truly wish you and your friend all the best.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Bleech

The way some of you guys talk on here you'd of thought you've have never put your foot down, taken a corner a bit quicker than is allowed, kept to the speed limit 100% of the time, and basically never had any fun in your car! It's a sports car at the end of the day, if you don't want to have any fun I'm sure you would of opted for a Prius.

I'm not condoning racing or excessive speeding. I'd say 99% of the time I keep to speed limits, drive safely and courteously (Apart from the saftey aspect, It's too expensive these days). But the other 1% I enjoy a little burn, a bit of tight cornering and enjoy driving my car what it was designed for, but only when it's safe to do so. I'm 40 now, so I'd like to think I know when those times are right. But I don't think age comes into it if you hit some gravel or ice and the car starts to go, it's pretty much out of your control (to an extent).

I truly wish you and your friend all the best.

Your post is full of contradictions. Since when is "cornering a bit tight" on a public road in freezing conditions where "ice" might be present on the road is safe or a good idea?

How is avoiding that scenario "out of your control"?

If that's how you drive, and you haven't ran into any significant issues, you (and others around you) have simply been lucky.

My rule of thumb is to have some fun if road conditions and surface are visible for a safe distance, which means partially or fully blind corners through narrow twisty roads is a bad idea by definition (I don't know for sure if that did or did not apply to the OP's situation). If you can't see what's on the other side of the turn, take it easy. If you want to corner tightly on narrow roads, take it to a track.

[BlackMoupe]

In my case, you can see any traffic ahead, but not the road itself.

[imom]

I can't believe I got myself in one of these heated banter threads. My point being is that if SSKE92 was driving a corolla and lost control, would everyone complain how his parents get blamed for him driving a car or letting him pay for the car? The corolla can equally go 50mph into a sweeping corner. Our M cars generally are 5MPH faster on the speedometer than the actual travel speeds. Surprisingly I generally forget and I'm doing about the flow of traffic. So based on what SSKE92 said... it appears to be that he was going about 50 MPH. In LA...how hard is it to do that? Most 2 to 3 lane roads we go about that fast or faster. I wouldn't do 50 around a hard corner even in my car because I don't see the need...but if it's a sweeping corner (slow corner is what it means to me) into a hard corner I don't see it much of an issue.

From what I can picture...it seems that SSKE92 was in a sweeper into a hard corner and he broke hard onto loose gravel/sand and the car didn't stop. The M cars does have ABS and traction control..so the car to lose control is either he was going too fast over 50+ or he had no traction. No traction means you become a passenger and no longer a driver.

Is it really necessary to rip into his parents for letting him buy a nice car? Is it the car or the driver the issue here? My friend dropped his bike going around a corner...he ran over gravel/sand on the road and dumped his bike. Mistakes happens. SSKE92 I'm sure will learn from this...it appears he's coming online looking for sympathy and to share...but instead he got more lectures and chastising than necessary.

I'm not here for debates...I join this forum to gather and share information. I only decided to comment after seeing so many ripping into him. Inexperience does not equal to age. I know many bad drivers at any age and I've seen to my dismay people who drink and then drive and then are way over 18. Anyone can be irresponsible at any age. From what I read of SSKE92, for 17 and to pay or work for his car and to take the comments from the forum members without arguing or being a smarty pants about it...shows maturity. I just like to see people comment on the facts rather than generalize stereotypes and then to rip into his parents about it.

I'm in SoCal, but I don't know the area that SSKE92 was driving, so I can't comment how the road conditions are. I can only comment the so called facts that's being written. From what SSKE92 saying that he took road course to track his car, shows he's got better driving experience than most 17yr old or general drivers.

For all the other forum members who disagree with me. Thank you for your comments too... at least we all have our inputs.

[lucid]

Sorry, but you don't understand probability and statistics. Nobody said adults never misjudge conditions. Nobody said teenagers can't kill themselves in a Corolla either.

You don't understand the relationship between speed, traction, and judging road conditions either.

This is all worth debating by the way because it is actually important. If you don't want to debate the issues, don't post on a controversial topic. We are not debating which wheels look best on a Z4M.

According to your point of view (post 115), it is best to hand over ZR1s to 16 year olds when they get their license because a ZR1 handles and brakes really well, and that would be "giving my kid the right tools to do the job." That is pure nonsense. You might have a M1 license and ridden sports bikes, but no, you don't know what you are talking about.

[imom]

Okay...lets argue...seems like some folks here want to debate.

1. SSKE92 said he was taking road courses and wanted to track his car one day...he also stated he did the best he could to reduce the speed when he lost traction.

2. He said he was driving from a sweeping corner to a hard corner and broke into a corner with gravel/dirt/sand and lost traction.

3. He said he was driving in third gear low RPMs. BTW the Ms has less low end torque than the 3.0SI. So fish tailing or losing the back end is less probable.

4. Someone had mentioned that he worked for it or paid for his car. I don't know who SSKE92 nor his parents. So why should I comment if they made the right decision to let their boy drive a nice sports car? So why should others, unless you can prove their parents are reckless?

My position is that unless you met SSKE92 or his parents. How can you comment what is right or wrong for him to drive? If SSKE92 was 25 and had this car and crashed or driven a different car would it make any difference as this speed?

Next thing is don't over exaggerate from a 330HP car to a 600HP+ car. This incident was going from 50 to 0 mph eventually. If SSKE92 was in any other car of lesser quality it may have been worse. He wouldn't have reduced his speed sooner. The impact may have been more. That was my point.

If you want to argue...please state your facts. Arguing with speculations or generalized stereotypes and ripping into the original poster or commenting about his parents decisions when you have never met them is unsettling. Gather facts and then commenting would have more value than opinions without knowing the full situation...is kinda like arguing about politics.

Diokaef and Dark Schnitzer both mentioned they met or talked with SSKE92..so their opinions would hold more value to me than someone from another state and never met the person or know that particular road and condition that day.

Finally to your comments about post 115 again. If I had a kid, it depends if he is mature enough mentally not age wise. Men in their 20s and 30s+ in fancy cars drive recklessly as well. And for your information...my background is very technical...I've taken enough physics and probabilistic systems classes to understand what I'm talking about...so I argue about facts not generalizations. I also play poker it's a game of skill and probability...what's your point to discredit what I say... to win?

Don't just pull out generalizations and stereotypes to prove your point. Just point out facts and that particular situation and event....if it makes sense.. then I've learned something new...and will thank you for it.

Before joining this forum...I was in the sky forum and there was this one idiot who met up for a sky meet back east call dragon tale or something like that. He took on a passenger and to show off his driving skills and pushing the car to its limits and ended up killing the passenger and sending him to the hospital. I was very annoyed to read that...the guy was in his 40s. That was clearly reckless driving...the map shows it's a twisty windy road and they were talking about how good the car handles and how fast they went.

Same goes for Angeles Crest... You can see a helicopter flying in and pulling riders out almost every weekend. So unless SSKE92 was lying...it appears he misjudge or didn't see the gravel/sand patches and broke hard on it and lost traction. It didn't appear to be about racing or going over excessive speeds.

If you have valuable information to show: I would to be enlightened. Otherwise it seems like less constructive banter. If you think I'm wrong...please state your facts instead of just saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

To the rest of the members, my apologies for these long posts...

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by imom

Okay...lets argue...seems like some folks here want to debate.

1. SSKE92 said he was taking road courses and wanted to track his car one day...he also stated he did the best he could to reduce the speed when he lost traction.

2. He said he was driving from a sweeping corner to a hard corner and broke into a corner with gravel/dirt/sand and lost traction.

3. He said he was driving in third gear low RPMs. BTW the Ms has less low end torque than the 3.0SI. So fish tailing or losing the back end is less probable.

4. Someone had mentioned that he worked for it or paid for his car. I don't know who SSKE92 nor his parents. So why should I comment if they made the right decision to let their boy drive a nice sports car? So why should others, unless you can prove their parents are reckless?

My position is that unless you met SSKE92 or his parents. How can you comment what is right or wrong for him to drive? If SSKE92 was 25 and had this car and crashed or driven a different car would it make any difference as this speed?

Next thing is don't over exaggerate from a 330HP car to a 600HP+ car. This incident was going from 50 to 0 mph eventually. If SSKE92 was in any other car of lesser quality it may have been worse. He wouldn't have reduced his speed sooner. The impact may have been more. That was my point.

If you want to argue...please state your facts. Arguing with speculations or generalized stereotypes and ripping into the original poster or commenting about his parents decisions when you have never met them is unsettling. Gather facts and then commenting would have more value than opinions without knowing the full situation...is kinda like arguing about politics.

Diokaef and Dark Schnitzer both mentioned they met or talked with SSKE92..so their opinions would hold more value to me than someone from another state and never met the person or know that particular road and condition that day.

Finally to your comments about post 115 again. If I had a kid, it depends if he is mature enough mentally not age wise. Men in their 20s and 30s+ in fancy cars drive recklessly as well. And for your information...my background is very technical...I've taken enough physics and probabilistic systems classes to understand what I'm talking about...so I argue about facts not generalizations. I also play poker it's a game of skill and probability...what's your point to discredit what I say... to win?

Don't just pull out generalizations and stereotypes to prove your point. Just point out facts and that particular situation and event....if it makes sense.. then I've learned something new...and will thank you for it.

Before joining this forum...I was in the sky forum and there was this one idiot who met up for a sky meet back east call dragon tale or something like that. He took on a passenger and to show off his driving skills and pushing the car to its limits and ended up killing the passenger and sending him to the hospital. I was very annoyed to read that...the guy was in his 40s. That was clearly reckless driving...the map shows it's a twisty windy road and they were talking about how good the car handles and how fast they went.

Same goes for Angeles Crest... You can see a helicopter flying in and pulling riders out almost every weekend. So unless SSKE92 was lying...it appears he misjudge or didn't see the gravel/sand patches and broke hard on it and lost traction. It didn't appear to be about racing or going over excessive speeds.

If you have valuable information to show: I would to be enlightened. Otherwise it seems like less constructive banter. If you think I'm wrong...please state your facts instead of just saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

To the rest of the members, my apologies for these long posts...

I strongly disagree with your characterization of the tone of the posts here. As I read them, there is definite agreement that the OP is an exceptionally mature and responsibe individual, regardless of his young age. Folks have recognized that he is by all accounts, a skilled and capable driver, and are sincerely concerned for him and his passenger.

To the broader discussion on teenagers in general, I was one too you know and having lived that, I know for an absolute fact that teenagers can commonly do very stupid things in a car or on a motorcycle. Your technical background is interesting but not particularly relevant in my opinion. I'm a professional engineer (mechanical), but I don't commonly calculate coefficient of friction and lateral g forces when I drive my car.

I will point out though that based on torque and horsepower curves posted on this board a couple of weeks ago, the torque of the 3.0si and M at low rpms are for all intents and purposes, identical. The M has just about as much grunt as the si.

[lucid]

Imom, most of your questions have already been answered by the responses I and others have posted. Just re-read and actually think about them—especially regarding speed, traction and judging the road conditions. But do understand that if the car was slower around that turn, which offered limited visibility, he would have been able to see the debris on the road and done something about it before he went over it, or at least gone off at a slower speed. That is the basic physics of the situation based on what has been described. It’s called situational awareness in technical terms. If you don’t have situational awareness, you don’t have control either.

Well grounded generalizations are very much useful. The ability to have situational awareness and exercise better judgment will increase up to an age (with experience) in general, and, the risk of losing control will decrease. That information, you can do something about if you are mentoring and overseeing the decisions of a teenager as a parent.

The OP would have been less likely to make the same mistake in the same situation if he were 40. And he would be less inclined to make that mistake if he were in a Corolla as the temptation to speed would be less (for the reason I already outlined and some other potential reasons that I’d rather not get into here because I don’t mean to turn this into a courtroom). He pretty much said the same thing himself by saying he should have waited to get the M. What part of that do you not understand?

The fact that some 40 year olds indeed do exhibit poorer judgment than some teenagers has nothing to do with this. That doesn’t lower the bar for teenagers. I'd voice much stronger opinion if a 40 year old made the same mistake since he/she should know better, but, unfortunately, pragmatically, nobody (maybe except his/her spouse) can do anything about that until he/she commits the act since his/her days of being parented are over.

I am not exaggerating at all with the ZR1 comment. You said a sport bike would be safer for a teenager because it can handle and stop better. I am saying then we should hand teenagers ZR1s because they indeed handle and stop much faster than Corollas. Perfectly legitimate comparison. The power/weight ratio of a sport bike is through the roof, the way the ZR1’s power/weight ratio is. Why back out of what you said? So, by claiming that my ZR1 comparison is an exaggeration and not fair, you are basically admitting that high performance cars should not be driven by teenagers (with the exception of what you consider to be a high performance car). Then, what is your point all along this discussion? You are contradicting yourself.

The real unfortunate thing is that you might hand over the keys of a Ducati to your kid for him to drive on public roads when he turns 16 thinking he is Hayden. I wouldn’t do that to my kid even if he was exactly who Hayden was when he was 16 (the type of judgment one exercises on a race track does not map one-to-one to driving on public roads as the conditions are very different including social factors).

Also, to echo Huz-Z’s comment above, nobody has treated the OP or his parents with disrespect on this thread, mainly because of the way he has presented himself. I (and others) are obviously stating that his parents should have acted differently, but that is not ripping into anyone by any measure.

Finally, I’ll add one more thing to my list of things you don’t understand: torque. Z4M has significantly more torque than a 3.0si at the wheels at any given rpm above 1500rpm in the same gear. You don’t understand what a dyno plot represents, and I don’t want to write 2 pages on how to arrive at actual wheel torque numbers from a dyno plot by using gear ratios. So much for your technical background.

[Bleech]

Originally Posted by lucid

Your post is full of contradictions. Since when is "cornering a bit tight" on a public road in freezing conditions where "ice" might be present on the road is safe or a good idea?

How is avoiding that scenario "out of your control"?

If that's how you drive, and you haven't ran into any significant issues, you (and others around you) have simply been lucky.

My rule of thumb is to have some fun if road conditions and surface are visible for a safe distance, which means partially or fully blind corners through narrow twisty roads is a bad idea by definition (I don't know for sure if that did or did not apply to the OP's situation). If you can't see what's on the other side of the turn, take it easy. If you want to corner tightly on narrow roads, take it to a track.

"but only when it's safe to do so"