VANOS Cam timing off?

[SaltyNC]

Well, I have been meaning to get BMW tools setup on an old laptop for some time, and finally got everything installed, and thought I'd check out my VANOS timing with INPA.



StickMon It looks like I'm just a few tenths out of the acceptable range on the intake side, but if I remember correctly, you were able to get your numbers much better. I couldn't remember if you had to remove the VANOS to adjust the timing, or how you managed to get yours so dead center.

Any help is much appreciated from all, but I just remember Stickmon nailed his timing and had a similar issue.

This is a little disappointing, to be honest. I am finding in so many areas, not just mechanical, the only way I can get things done truly right is to do it myself.

Thanks!

Salty

[steffenme1]

I keep selfishly watching this thread hoping for an answer. I'll be doing the Vanos on mine in the next few weeks and the uncertainly here just give me another thing to be irrationally terrified of.

Hope you get it sorted Salty!

(edit) Did you find any DIY particularly helpful for INPA? I have it on my laptop but I haven't seemed to find much documentation surrounding it, or I'm just looking in the wrong places.

[SaltyNC]

Thanks, Steffen. Check out post #5 here:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=482448

and this is an interesting discussion:
http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=116419

I was tied up swapping out tie rods and dealing with a stuck brake caliper on a 330Ci this weekend, but plan to dig into this more next week.

This was Stickmon's original post that I had remembered:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108556

Here is all I have bookmarked right now on INPA. I'll be digging into it more as time allows, also.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=561237


Salty

[StickMon]

Sorry for the late arrival. I've been in Australia for the last 10 days with limited free time.

Glad you found my post. You can do it without removing the Vanos. It will just be a little trickier to measure.

Rotate the crank so that you have 3 of the 6 hub bolts reachable from the top.
Color them with a sharpie and back them out a little.
Rotate the crank so you have access to the other 3 bolts and back them out a little.
The cup spring is still a little compressed, so it may take some trial and error to find how much to back them out so you can just rotate the hub.
Note also that due to the cup springs the measurement will change when you back the bolts out and sock them back down. More trial and error.

Then there's the really tricky bit: How much to turn them and in what direction.

[SaltyNC]

Originally Posted by StickMon

Sorry for the late arrival. I've been in Australia for the last 10 days with limited free time.

Glad you found my post. You can do it without removing the Vanos. It will just be a little trickier to measure.

Then there's the really tricky bit: How much to turn them and in what direction.

Australia...man, that's cool. I hope you had a good time. Thanks so much for getting back to me.

So, this is how Raj of Beisan suggests correcting timing after the VANOS is installed:

Adjustment of timing

If timing alignment is found to be incorrect, perform following procedure to adjust timing.
Timing adjustment procedure presumes engine position at end of timing checking; crankshaft at TDC with lock pin removed, intake and exhaust camshaft cylinder 1 cams pointing in to each other at ~45 degree angle.

Perform timing adjustment for camshaft(s) with incorrect timing alignment.

Turn crankshaft pulley clockwise one full rotation until timing marks match again (crankshaft turning socket 1/2" / 1/2” long-arm ratchet & short extension).

Loosen sprocket hub 3 top mounting bolts (10mm ratcheting wrench). Note: Bolts need to be notably loose so once opposite side 3 bolts are loosened hub will be free.

Turn crankshaft pulley clockwise one full rotation until timing marks match again (crankshaft turning socket 1/2" / 1/2” long-arm ratchet & short extension).
Adjust crankshaft pulley to precisely align TDC timing marks (crankshaft turning socket 1/2" / 1/2” long-arm ratchet & short extension).
Install crankshaft locking pin in timing cover bracket hole.

Fully retard camshaft timing.
Place open wrench (24mm combo wrench) on camshaft hex at front of camshaft.
Rotate camshaft counter clockwise to adjustment end position. If camshaft resistant to rotation rock camshaft back and forth to release seize.
Note: Camshaft rotation is most effective when standing at exhaust side of car.
Note: Splined shaft can be seen protruding from sprocket hub front when camshaft is at adjustment end position.

Loosen sprocket hub 3 top mounting bolts (10mm ratcheting wrench).
Note: All sprocket hub bolts are now loose.

Install vanos alignment bridge without alignment dowel on engine head between cylinders 2 & 3.
Note: Bridge has intake and exhaust orientation. Note: E is intake and A is exhaust in German.
Insert bridge alignment dowel through bridge hole and insert dowel into camshaft alignment hole.
Note: Lift up bridge intake or exhaust end as necessary to align and insert dowel into camshaft hole.
Rotate camshaft at hex between cylinder 1 & 2 to align camshaft alignment hole perpendicular to engine head and allow bridge ends to sit on engine head (24mm open wrench).
Fully insert bridge dowel into camshaft and onto bridge. Turn and press down dowel as needed to fully insert.
Place hand on middle of bridge and rock camshaft back and forth to identify and set camshaft in position where bridge intake and exhaust ends are sitting flat on engine head.
Remove alignment dowel and bridge.

Follow above procedure starting at step just after mounting and tightening all vanos mounting bolts.
Perform sprocket hub bolt tightening only for adjusted camshaft(s).


Is the procedure above allowing the splined shaft to essentially freely rotate in and out while adjusting the cams, and then it gets locked down, and if done precisely, it should be protruding the same as your measurements (on the intake side, anyway, since I'm not using TT's hub).

Looks like I need to buy the alignment bridge tool if I do the above process. Seems weird to me that the VANOS work could be done, but the timing missed. Oh well, it's only a few more thousand miles until valve shim time, so I'll just do everything while I have the valve cover off.

The car seems to run fine. Do you think there is any harm in running it for awhile longer .1 out of spec? If not, I'll do it all when I do my valve shim adjustment.

Thanks again, Stickmon.

Salty

[StickMon]

That sounds like a solid procedure.
You may still want to color the first 3 bolts you loosen with a Sharpie so you don't lose track later.
Also maybe make some sanity marks on the hub and sprocket before you do anything.

I've driven my car many miles with the exhaust off by 14°.
Also, if I remember how to read INPA, you're off on the safe side.
Intake valves will open late, so no danger of hitting the pistons.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by SaltyNC

Well, I have been meaning to get BMW tools setup on an old laptop for some time, and finally got everything installed, and thought I'd check out my VANOS timing with INPA.



StickMon It looks like I'm just a few tenths out of the acceptable range on the intake side, but if I remember correctly, you were able to get your numbers much better. I couldn't remember if you had to remove the VANOS to adjust the timing, or how you managed to get yours so dead center.

Any help is much appreciated from all, but I just remember Stickmon nailed his timing and had a similar issue.

This is a little disappointing, to be honest. I am finding in so many areas, not just mechanical, the only way I can get things done truly right is to do it myself.

Thanks!

Salty

I can't help with VANOS but I can totally relate to this "I am finding in so many areas, not just mechanical, the only way I can get things done truly right is to do it myself."

It's rather exhausting. On the other hand paying for something plus DIY, or trying to clean up the mess someone else makes is worse. The lack of thinking ability and pride of work amazes me.

[StickMon]

Yeppers.
I originally got started down the "how to properly time the camshafts" rat hole after having my sheared bolts replaced by a "mechanic" who was so far off on the first try that I got a camshaft position error SES on my way home from his shop, and after the second try was only able to get within 14°.

Salty,
Since you have INPA readings, one could determine how far and in what direction the hub needs to rotate.
One could loosen the intake hub, rotate it 10° in the right direction, and then sock it back down and be dead nuts on, without the need of a bridge or the thin 26mm wrench to rotate the camshaft (I was never very successful at "release seize").
I used to be that "one". For a brief time when I was doing mine I understood how to read INPA +/- and knew what direction it had to go.

I don't trust my judgement right now. Still have some jet lag from Australia and tomorrow night I have to work from 11 pm to 10 am way out in the Mojave trying to figure out if Jupiter has a chewy nougat center.
It'll be deep into the weekend before my head's clear.

[SaltyNC]

Originally Posted by StickMon

Yeppers.
I originally got started down the "how to properly time the camshafts" rat hole after having my sheared bolts replaced by a "mechanic" who was so far off on the first try that I got a camshaft position error SES on my way home from his shop, and after the second try was only able to get within 14°.

Salty,
Since you have INPA readings, one could determine how far and in what direction the hub needs to rotate.
One could loosen the intake hub, rotate it 10° in the right direction, and then sock it back down and be dead nuts on, without the need of a bridge or the thin 26mm wrench to rotate the camshaft (I was never very successful at "release seize").
I used to be that "one". For a brief time when I was doing mine I understood how to read INPA +/- and knew what direction it had to go.

I don't trust my judgement right now. Still have some jet lag from Australia and tomorrow night I have to work from 11 pm to 10 am way out in the Mojave trying to figure out if Jupiter has a chewy nougat center.
It'll be deep into the weekend before my head's clear.

See, this right here is why everyone needs to have a rocket scientist for a bud. That's so obvious, but so dang brilliant. It's telling me right there on the screen, it's 10 degrees off on the intake side.

Here is what I think I'll do.
1. Mark the bolt heads as you suggest for peace of mind to know I got all six loosened.
2. Mark the hub and spline alignment before loosening bolts.
3. Measure how much the spine protrudes and compare to your value.
4. After bolts loosened, rotate hub CW and then CCW and watch spline movement to determine the correct rotational direction to move closer to .24".
5. Re-align original alignment marks and then rotate in the direction determined in step 4 by ~10 degrees, which should have me right on zero in INPA.
6. Measure spine protrusion again and compare to .24" for peace of mind.
7. Lock it all down, put it back together, and see if INPA confirms good timing.

Good luck recovering from jet lag, and that's really cool about Jupiter. Thanks again, Stickmon!

Salty

[SaltyNC]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

I can't help with VANOS but I can totally relate to this "I am finding in so many areas, not just mechanical, the only way I can get things done truly right is to do it myself."

It's rather exhausting. On the other hand paying for something plus DIY, or trying to clean up the mess someone else makes is worse. The lack of thinking ability and pride of work amazes me.

Reading the VANOS/Beisan threads on various forums, it sounds like the timing is often a problem due to missing one point in the process. In fairness to the guy that did mine, I do think he took his time and really tried to follow the procedure to the letter, and I think (hope) the VANOS is rebuilt properly. I think it is. I guess I'm surprised he didn't have a way to check timing with INPA or similar, or if he did, if he was OK with it being barely out of spec. If it were me, I would have opened it back up without hesitation. Maybe he followed the procedure and never checked with a diagnostic tool.

But, I have been told more than once that the new way is "good enough" that some errors are OK. Ehh, I guess if you're talking about some percentage of misshapen Cheerios in a box of cereal that's one thing, but on something like this, I want it dead center in the tolerance spread.

Here's to high standards!

Salty

[bignosejim]

Have you thought about looking at INPA real time while your adjusting your timing? That might help get you closer also. Still following the Beisan systems procedure for adjusting. It would be interesting to see if numbers you see while adjusting and what the final numbers are after all is said and done.

[SaltyNC]

Originally Posted by bignosejim

Have you thought about looking at INPA real time while your adjusting your timing? That might help get you closer also. Still following the Beisan systems procedure for adjusting. It would be interesting to see if numbers you see while adjusting and what the final numbers are after all is said and done.

Jim, I love the idea, but I didn't think that would be possible. INPA will show those values without the engine running? If so, that's the ticket right there.

Salty

[StickMon]

INPA is showing the adaptation after the DME has had a few minutes to compare the crank position sensor to the cam position sensors.
I think.
It says it had to advance you 10°, so you're 10° retarded (no offense).

BTW, I think you're the only one besides me to actually check the timing after having Vanos work done.

Jupiter rising ...
We're go for nocturnal emissions.

[SaltyNC]

Originally Posted by StickMon

It says it had to advance you 10°, so you're 10° retarded (no offense).
.

LOL!! I know that's right.

I was thinking of it in terms of absolute value rather than adaptation value. Now this makes perfect sense. I'm retarded, so the adaptation is advancing me 10° to compensate.

Originally Posted by StickMon

Jupiter rising ...
We're go for nocturnal emissions.

Seems like there should be a Train song playing about now.

Thanks, Stickmon!

Salty

[steffenme1]

Here's a quick +1 for the Beisan assembly method. I wrapped up my VANOS rebuild yesterday, here are my before/after INPA pics.

Before:



After:



I actually started reassembly with the 'teeth barely showing' method but quickly screwed it up. My exhaust spline was sticking out just a bit to far and I was worried about it putting pressure on my pump disk during reassembly. I ended up removing the whole VANOS and starting again. The only caveat to the Beisan method is the ability to properly torque the bolts. You can reach the intake side without too much of a problem but the exhaust side requires the use of a crowsfoot so be sure to do the math and ensure your values are correct.

Best of luck Salty!

[SaltyNC]

Originally Posted by steffenme1

Here's a quick +1 for the Beisan assembly method. I wrapped up my VANOS rebuild yesterday, here are my before/after INPA pics.

Best of luck Salty!

Thanks, man. DIY wins again. Congrats on your successful rebuild.

Salty

[StickMon]

Originally Posted by steffenme1

... The only caveat to the Beisan method is the ability to properly torque the bolts. ...

That was the part that bothered me.
I wanted to find a way to sock the hubs down before installing the Vanos, so that I could get a straight shot with the torque wrench.
Even then I had 2 bolts strip, and had to run down to McMaster and get a full set of 12.9s.
Was kicking myself the whole way. I always buy new hardware for any job I'm doing, however silly it seems, but for some stupid reason, that time I didn't.

Congrats on totally nailing the timing, and kudos for being now the 3rd person that's actually checked it afterwards.