man i hope this isn't the case...

[AtoB]

http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243161

[Starscream]

Would make ours a little more special

[AtoB]

Originally Posted by Starscream

Would make ours a little more special

i'm a three year commitment kink of guy. less than two left... i do dig the looks of that Z2!

[tom_48]

I think it was quite obvious, unfortunately...

With this new one being so luxurious, comfortable, and therefore heavy, Z4's will no longer be so light and sporty, as our are. What a bummer

I just hope the Z2 could have an M version!

[wyu177]

Didn't BMW originally say there would be no ///M version of the e85/86 also?

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by wyu177

Didn't BMW originally say there would be no ///M version of the e85/86 also?

For the Z4, they said there would be no M and no coupe. For the Z3, they said there'd be no M.

[tom_48]

Originally Posted by epbrown

For the Z4, they said there would be no M and no coupe. For the Z3, they said there'd be no M.

Then, let's pray it will happen

[Nikki]

They just say that so people won't hold out for the M and will just buy one now.

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by Nikki

They just say that so people won't hold out for the M and will just buy one now.

Exactly.

[Hawkeye]

I agree with Nicki as well. There will be an M version for sure, it may be a few years, but it will come out sooner or later.

[vicj]

No friends, there will NOT be an M version. BMW lost a fortune building the M version of the Z4. They just didn't sell nearly well enough. The problem was price vs. identity. At $50,000 and up, the two-seat sports car market is basically OWNED by Porsche, with the Vette hanging tough. A lot of guys spending that money on their 'dream', or even 'crises' car are going to spend it on the brand they think everyone ELSE will think is cool. Not necessarily the best car for the money. It's a shame, but it's also true.

BMW developed the M version of the Z4 because of the "overwhelming" demand from enthusiasts, you'll recall, but then many of those enthusiasts didn't pony up to the bar with the cash when they came out.

Also remember, that the twin turbo version of the new Z4 will cost almost what a Z4M cost before. To make an M version, they'd have to use the V8 probably, pushing the price well into the high 60's. Not going to happen.

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by vicj

The problem was price vs. identity. At $50,000 and up, the two-seat sports car market is basically OWNED by Porsche, with the Vette hanging tough.

By that logic, the new Z4 is in serious trouble. It eclipses $50k very easily, and that's not even for an M car. Add the porky weight and unnecessary toys & electronics, and most enthusiasts won't touch it. I still think it will sell reasonably well, to a completely new audience.

[GP20]

Originally Posted by KevinC

By that logic, the new Z4 is in serious trouble. It eclipses $50k very easily, and that's not even for an M car. Add the porky weight and unnecessary toys & electronics, and most enthusiasts won't touch it. I still think it will sell reasonably well, to a completely new audience.

They will sell regardless once BMW starts offering $12K discounts on those.

[AtoB]

Originally Posted by vicj

No friends, there will NOT be an M version. BMW lost a fortune building the M version of the Z4. They just didn't sell nearly well enough. The problem was price vs. identity. At $50,000 and up, the two-seat sports car market is basically OWNED by Porsche, with the Vette hanging tough. A lot of guys spending that money on their 'dream', or even 'crises' car are going to spend it on the brand they think everyone ELSE will think is cool. Not necessarily the best car for the money. It's a shame, but it's also true.

BMW developed the M version of the Z4 because of the "overwhelming" demand from enthusiasts, you'll recall, but then many of those enthusiasts didn't pony up to the bar with the cash when they came out.

Also remember, that the twin turbo version of the new Z4 will cost almost what a Z4M cost before. To make an M version, they'd have to use the V8 probably, pushing the price well into the high 60's. Not going to happen.

it's too bad... my only BMW option it looks like next time is the M3 convert.... problem is, it's heavy, on paper it is slower that the Z4M, and has two extra seats i don't want or need.... looks more and more like a boxster S next time around.

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by vicj

No friends, there will NOT be an M version. BMW lost a fortune building the M version of the Z4. They just didn't sell nearly well enough.

Where are you getting all this? BMW didn't lose a fortune building the Z4M, nor did they expect to sell a lot of them - they never do and never will. The Z3M and Z4M were built for two reasons:

1) They are cheap to build, because they're parts-bin specials: there's no real development necessary. The M version is released mid-run because it's late in the M3's run and by then demand is tapering off for the M3, often buyers are already waiting for the next version, and they have a surplus of M3 parts and M3 engine capacity. They slap 'em in the Z3 or Z4, tack on a few bucks for their trouble and schlep them out. The cars use almost no new parts or panels, because it's not worth spending money on new molds for such a small run of cars.

No, the tough part of the Z-car M projects has always been getting the coupe made. It's always cheaper to build coupes than convertibles, but usually it requires tooling, which is expensive. For the Z3M, a group of engineers did the project on their own time to prove the car could be made cheaply, without new tooling. For the Z4M, BMW didn't consider it at all, even their own engineers - an outside company made a mule and showed a Z4 coupe could be made cheaply, requiring only a few parts (rails, panel, hatch). Getting a fixed head coupe might actually be easier this time around - it's a given it will be cheaper to build than a folding hardtop.

But understand that if ever a Z-whatever M was a bona-fide hit, BMW would be in trouble. The M3 is a signature car, their bread-and-butter - they don't want a Z4M cannibalizing its sales or its parts-stream, stealing the limelight. The Z4M could easily have been built to outperform the E46 M3 using the existing parts-bin, as my own car demonstates, but showing up its big brother would be a no-no.


2) The Z3M/Z4M role is to generate some fresh ink, get a few magazine covers, and provide a market presence. BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, no one's gone into this market hoping to sell a ton of cars - expensive 2-seat sports cars is about the smallest, most volatile market segment on the planet. Porsche has dominated that market for almost 50 years and they lived on the brink of bankruptcy until they started building SUVs, while everyone else is either plowed under or bought out.

You go in knowing your break-even point, and BMW themselves stated they hoped to sell about a thousand of each body-type Z4M a year. It took some serious discounts, but they exceeded that goal. The Z4M wasn't a failure - really, it was the standard Z4 that didn't meet their market expectations, by several hundred thousand units.

[rc'Z]

The latest road test indicates the new turbo Z as the same 0-60 and 1/4 mile time as the old Z4M. May be heavier but the performance is there.

[vicj]

Originally Posted by epbrown

Where are you getting all this? BMW didn't lose a fortune building the Z4M, nor did they expect to sell a lot of them - they never do and never will. The Z3M and Z4M were built for two reasons:

1) They are cheap to build, because they're parts-bin specials: there's no real development necessary. The M version is released mid-run because it's late in the M3's run and by then demand is tapering off for the M3, often buyers are already waiting for the next version, and they have a surplus of M3 parts and M3 engine capacity. They slap 'em in the Z3 or Z4, tack on a few bucks for their trouble and schlep them out. The cars use almost no new parts or panels, because it's not worth spending money on new molds for such a small run of cars.

No, the tough part of the Z-car M projects has always been getting the coupe made. It's always cheaper to build coupes than convertibles, but usually it requires tooling, which is expensive. For the Z3M, a group of engineers did the project on their own time to prove the car could be made cheaply, without new tooling. For the Z4M, BMW didn't consider it at all, even their own engineers - an outside company made a mule and showed a Z4 coupe could be made cheaply, requiring only a few parts (rails, panel, hatch). Getting a fixed head coupe might actually be easier this time around - it's a given it will be cheaper to build than a folding hardtop.

But understand that if ever a Z-whatever M was a bona-fide hit, BMW would be in trouble. The M3 is a signature car, their bread-and-butter - they don't want a Z4M cannibalizing its sales or its parts-stream, stealing the limelight. The Z4M could easily have been built to outperform the E46 M3 using the existing parts-bin, as my own car demonstates, but showing up its big brother would be a no-no.


2) The Z3M/Z4M role is to generate some fresh ink, get a few magazine covers, and provide a market presence. BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, no one's gone into this market hoping to sell a ton of cars - expensive 2-seat sports cars is about the smallest, most volatile market segment on the planet. Porsche has dominated that market for almost 50 years and they lived on the brink of bankruptcy until they started building SUVs, while everyone else is either plowed under or bought out.

You go in knowing your break-even point, and BMW themselves stated they hoped to sell about a thousand of each body-type Z4M a year. It took some serious discounts, but they exceeded that goal. The Z4M wasn't a failure - really, it was the standard Z4 that didn't meet their market expectations, by several hundred thousand units.

The last couple lines of your post prove my point. You are absolutely correct about everything, if you looked at the profitability of a vehicle only from the manufacturing side. I also agree completely with your theory about not 'upstaging' the M3, although the Z4M may really be a much funer car in stock form, than even the current M3. Porsche did the same thing for years with the Boxster and the 911. It would have been easy for them to create a Boxster that would out-perform the 911, at almost half the price. You are correct that car companies must 'protect' their iconic cars. So, your arguments are correct and logical.

Unfortunately, one has to actually SELL the cars to make a profit. That's where the problems arose. Perhaps I misstated things when I said BMW lost a fortune PRODUCING the cars. I should have said they lost a fortune when they tried to SELL them. The discounts it took to realize the sales goals sucked all the profit right out of the car for BMW. In 2008, you could still find NEW 2006's on the lot (believe me. I saved almost 16,000 bucks). In an interview in 2007, BMW's head of Marketing acknowledged the issue, saying that BMW "should have put more time and development into the Z4M, to make it perform far ahead of it's competition on the market". That was my only point. Many people (not all, of course. And certainly not BMW fans) want to buy not only performance at these prices, but perhaps also a little bit of what they feel is more 'street cred', buy buying the Porsche brand at these prices. The Z4M broke new ground for M cars in a couple of rather negative areas: it was not 100hp higher than it's non-M brothers. It also looked a little too much like a regular Z4, which in most markets and forums, was considered a 'cute' car, but not 'really' a sports car. Not MY opinion, but what I often heard from others.

So, at $43,000 or so, loaded, (Premium, Cold weather, Extended Leather) the cars were a success. At a loss. Anything near the sticker price? Nope.

[jgorman13]

Originally Posted by vicj

No friends, there will NOT be an M version. BMW lost a fortune building the M version of the Z4. They just didn't sell nearly well enough. The problem was price vs. identity. At $50,000 and up, the two-seat sports car market is basically OWNED by Porsche, with the Vette hanging tough. A lot of guys spending that money on their 'dream', or even 'crises' car are going to spend it on the brand they think everyone ELSE will think is cool. Not necessarily the best car for the money. It's a shame, but it's also true.

BMW developed the M version of the Z4 because of the "overwhelming" demand from enthusiasts, you'll recall, but then many of those enthusiasts didn't pony up to the bar with the cash when they came out.

Also remember, that the twin turbo version of the new Z4 will cost almost what a Z4M cost before. To make an M version, they'd have to use the V8 probably, pushing the price well into the high 60's. Not going to happen.

bingo. As much as there are enthusiasts like ourselves that would very much be interested in an M version of the E89, BMW will not take a risk making a car that will not sell. The Z4M did not do that well, and there are still plenty on dealer lots that wont sell (hence the ridiculous deals osme of our peers are getting). From a strictly business point of view, even if the world breaks out of the recession, BMW is still a company thats sales have been dwindling to the point where they may need significant loans from the german government.

Releasing the M-Sport version is smart on their part, considering the SDRIVE35 is fast as it is and equally expensive. Putting out an M version would most likely eclipse the price of the M3, taking away potential buyers of an already slow selling idea.
Just my 2 cents.