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      04-17-2014, 01:16 PM   #1
gmd2003
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Hello all , I wanted to give everyone an update on how the car runs on track with the larger Bosch injectors and the new tune . The conditions were a brutal 85 degrees with high humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.9 . Despite hitting oil temps of 250 by the end of my 20 min sessions I had 0 limp mode episodes , even running 93 octane and attempting to instigate it . The only negatives are the tune is def very conservative up top but I still was hitting the limiter on the front straight at 147 mph GPS in 5th so not a huge decrease by any means . It seems to reduce timing a good bit more when the car is hot vs the old tune which is likely why no limp mode . Here is a vid of my first session , with a lot of good action . ( check out the Hello Kitty E36 M3 I pass on the opening lap lol, it says on the bumper "you got passed by a girl " ) Be sure to check out the last lap when I get over zealous entering turn 5 . Overall I am very pleased to have the engine finally be reliable .
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      04-17-2014, 11:36 PM   #2
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Good to hear George, that you didn't give up. Any updated Dyno numbers with the new tune?
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      04-18-2014, 05:13 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seank
Good to hear George, that you didn't give up. Any updated Dyno numbers with the new tune?
I did a dyno right after install before adaptation ( our ECU's take a long time with tune changes ) and it made a little over 420whp . The temp was 87 and the dyno fan was down that day so considering all that and my restrictor plate intake , it's not bad . My slinkie is collapsing again ( I've replaced it twice ) , it's next up on my improvement list . Got to get a proper intake set up ,it is def costing me power up top . But bottom line is my AFR's were solid to redline and the car does not limp on track now in the worst conditions on 93 octane pump gas . So the brake booster code was a red Herring all along and the car was obviously limping because it was running lean on track . Anyway glad it's all sorted now finally ! Next up is figuring out how to put a half cage in a roadster without completely destroying the interior . I'm raping fully built race cars on Hoosiers and that means I'm going way to fast for standard safety equipment . If I get harnesses , neck protection , and a half cage them I can finally run slicks too and really put some speed down .
George
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      04-19-2014, 03:03 AM   #4
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so.. how much difference from 445 to 525.?
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      04-19-2014, 09:15 AM   #5
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About 85.

George, look into a silicon elbow. They make them in all different sizes.
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      04-19-2014, 09:25 AM   #6
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About 3mph faster on the front straight at my local track from 144-147 avg speed on it . So that corresponds to the 40 -50whp difference on the dyno . Because of the intercooler it's much more consistent on track power wise than the VT-1 , but it is still very temp sensitive .
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      04-19-2014, 09:42 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seank
About 85.

George, look into a silicon elbow. They make them in all different sizes.
Great idea , I was waiting on the new intake design from ESS but that apparently is at the" in a few weeks" for infinity stage lol . I'll do an elbow before my next event if they don't deliver .
George
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      04-19-2014, 11:58 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I did a dyno right after install before adaptation ( our ECU's take a long time with tune changes ) and it made a little over 420whp . The temp was 87 and the dyno fan was down that day so considering all that and my restrictor plate intake , it's not bad . My slinkie is collapsing again ( I've replaced it twice ) , it's next up on my improvement list . Got to get a proper intake set up ,it is def costing me power up top . But bottom line is my AFR's were solid to redline and the car does not limp on track now in the worst conditions on 93 octane pump gas . So the brake booster code was a red Herring all along and the car was obviously limping because it was running lean on track . Anyway glad it's all sorted now finally ! Next up is figuring out how to put a half cage in a roadster without completely destroying the interior . I'm raping fully built race cars on Hoosiers and that means I'm going way to fast for standard safety equipment . If I get harnesses , neck protection , and a half cage them I can finally run slicks too and really put some speed down .
George

ive dealt with this issue..... now i went overboard, 4 layer silicone (with braided material between each layer) with titanium internal ribbing, this this is incredibly strong and resistant to upto 300 deg C and actually reflects heat, its the daddy of this type of hosing... sadly it costs 120 bucks per metre and you can only buy it in 2 metre sections

my ess spec hose fell to pieces very quickly...

i still have some left if you need any.....

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      04-19-2014, 12:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Great idea , I was waiting on the new intake design from ESS but that apparently is at the" in a few weeks" for infinity stage lol . I'll do an elbow before my next event if they don't deliver .
George
didn't even realise they where working on a new intake setup, i like the current one, its just a little tight.... it get a really good blasting of air however and i like that its outside the engine bay....
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      04-19-2014, 12:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Great idea , I was waiting on the new intake design from ESS but that apparently is at the" in a few weeks" for infinity stage lol . I'll do an elbow before my next event if they don't deliver .
George
I cut the area before the filter and elbow and the car felt much more alive.
You can do that if you want.
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      04-19-2014, 10:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
I cut the area before the filter and elbow and the car felt much more alive.
You can do that if you want.
Pictures?
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      04-20-2014, 01:46 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by MPowerZ32 View Post
Pictures?
Yeah Sure i can do that. give me a day or 2.

There's someone that did this as well:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=776517
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      06-03-2015, 01:17 AM   #13
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Hey GMD. Following this with interest (just came across the thread not long ago). I too have the larger injectors, zion rad, and larger oil cooler (FYI, I don't notice much difference for all three mods, but enough that at least heat soak isn't so bad the engine warning light comes on like it used to, and oil temps run slightly lower than previously. For the record though I installed the larger cooler before the rad, and my impression was the rad had a bigger effect than the cooler, which I believe is the opposite of your thoughts), but I have not been able to solve the limp mode issue yet. Last time I went to the track it happened 6 times in one 20 minute session!! And some of those times were mid corner, which it had never done before.

Anyway, when I read your first post I thought, cool! And immediately asked ESS to confirm the limp mode issue is in the past and to send me an E-flash cable. But they responded to say they still believe it to be the lack of brake vacuum issue and requires a stronger booster to fix it.

So now I'm not sure what to do next. I start competitive events in 3 weeks and I still have a car that runs hot and goes in to limp mode every couple of laps. I can deal with the heat, but the limp mode issue is killing my ability to put good laps together.

It would be great (make that totally awesome) if you could answer some questions to help me get to the bottom of this:

- Did you try the brake booster solution?
- How many track days/session have you done with the new ESS tune, and how many limp modes have you had in that time? I assume previously (as is the case with me now) it would happen in pretty much 100% of sessions after the VT2 upgrade (unless raining).
- Have you spoken to ESS about the software specifically in relation to the limp mode issue? If so who, and what came of it?

Thanks buddy. I appreciate your posts as always.
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      06-03-2015, 01:24 AM   #14
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Also, what injectors are you running these days? I'm using the ones ESS supplies specifically for the VT2-525 kit, which are larger than the ones that come with the VT1 and VT2-500 kits. I'm not sure about the specs tho.
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      06-03-2015, 06:55 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMZ432
Also, what injectors are you running these days? I'm using the ones ESS supplies specifically for the VT2-525 kit, which are larger than the ones that come with the VT1 and VT2-500 kits. I'm not sure about the specs tho.
The limp mode in my opinion was and us 100% injector/tune related . After getting the correct injectors and a new tune from ESS , I have set PB laps with no limp mode in the middle of SC summer . I had a check valve from a diesel motor in place and a brand new brake booster line and the limp mode still occurred . My problem was undersized injectors the whole time , not temp or anything else. They sent me the wrong shit lol . The replacement injectors they sent me are 450 cc I believe which with our crazy high fuel pressure works . The tune is even more important though because you can't just throw a big injector in you have to tune the duty cycle of the injector . Any way with the updated 525 tune and "correct " 525 injectors my problem went away . And FYI if I scan my ECU a brake booster error code still shows up lol . My point is it's NOT the damn brake booster .!
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      06-03-2015, 07:55 AM   #16
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our fuel pressure is insanely high !! lmao!! wonder why bmw ran it this way on the z4m?
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      06-04-2015, 06:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
The limp mode in my opinion was and us 100% injector/tune related . After getting the correct injectors and a new tune from ESS , I have set PB laps with no limp mode in the middle of SC summer . I had a check valve from a diesel motor in place and a brand new brake booster line and the limp mode still occurred . My problem was undersized injectors the whole time , not temp or anything else. They sent me the wrong shit lol . The replacement injectors they sent me are 450 cc I believe which with our crazy high fuel pressure works . The tune is even more important though because you can't just throw a big injector in you have to tune the duty cycle of the injector . Any way with the updated 525 tune and "correct " 525 injectors my problem went away . And FYI if I scan my ECU a brake booster error code still shows up lol . My point is it's NOT the damn brake booster .!
Okay, thanks for the info. I'll ask ESS if they think they standard pump can handle 450cc injectors (from memory you have upgraded your fuel pump?), and if so I'll get the injectors and flash it and see how it goes. Though if I miss my June 21st event it will be awhile before I get a chance to test it. Fingers crossed!
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      06-04-2015, 06:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMZ432
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
The limp mode in my opinion was and us 100% injector/tune related . After getting the correct injectors and a new tune from ESS , I have set PB laps with no limp mode in the middle of SC summer . I had a check valve from a diesel motor in place and a brand new brake booster line and the limp mode still occurred . My problem was undersized injectors the whole time , not temp or anything else. They sent me the wrong shit lol . The replacement injectors they sent me are 450 cc I believe which with our crazy high fuel pressure works . The tune is even more important though because you can't just throw a big injector in you have to tune the duty cycle of the injector . Any way with the updated 525 tune and "correct " 525 injectors my problem went away . And FYI if I scan my ECU a brake booster error code still shows up lol . My point is it's NOT the damn brake booster .!
Okay, thanks for the info. I'll ask ESS if they think they standard pump can handle 450cc injectors (from memory you have upgraded your fuel pump?), and if so I'll get the injectors and flash it and see how it goes. Though if I miss my June 21st event it will be awhile before I get a chance to test it. Fingers crossed!
What size injectors do you have now ? I had fuel starvation just not from my pump lol , it was the injectors . Basically I chased down every rabbit hole ESS sent me down with upgraded parts . Finally I methodically tested my fuel system and hen everything was good fuel pressure wise and the car was still running lean all that was left was the injector size and tune .
George
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      06-04-2015, 12:36 PM   #19
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Have you considered running water/meth? A small amount of 50/50 mix, progressive controller, and trunk-mounted tank would be ideal for controlling temps, especially as the car gets hot towards the end of a session. Parts are <$500.

If the fan was down the day you did your dyno, you effectively ran with no aftercooling.... such is the downside of an air-to-air intercooler... no airflow = no cooling. Even with a fan, my ESS car suffered more than my G-Power car after repeated runs on the dyno, though a long track session might be different (I'm not sure).
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      06-04-2015, 12:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches
Have you considered running water/meth? A small amount of 50/50 mix, progressive controller, and trunk-mounted tank would be ideal for controlling temps, especially as the car gets hot towards the end of a session. Parts are &lt;$500.

If the fan was down the day you did your dyno, you effectively ran with no aftercooling.... such is the downside of an air-to-air intercooler... no airflow = no cooling. Even with a fan, my ESS car suffered more than my G-Power car after repeated runs on the dyno, though a long track session might be different (I'm not sure).
It's very consistent now with the right injectors /tune . After the rebuild with the head work it is significantly faster than before despite me going to the larger 82mm supercharger pulley . No need for water meth, only an opportunity for problems in my opinion .
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      06-04-2015, 03:49 PM   #21
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While it is adding a new component, water/meth is reliable. Other than some one in a million failure, I think the worst thing that would happen is the meth would stop spraying. Then you'll be right back to where you are now.

On my non-M, I use water/meth instead of an intercooler, and it's running higher boost levels than either of the M's... although the compression of the M54 engine is lower. I wouldn't advise tuning for meth on a track car due to the high temperatures and increased risk of catastrophic failure in the event of a problem with the spray, but if you use it as supplemental cooling only, I'm not sure I see an issue. If not for power reasons, I would do it for engine longevity.
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      06-04-2015, 04:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches
While it is adding a new component, water/meth is reliable. Other than some one in a million failure, I think the worst thing that would happen is the meth would stop spraying. Then you'll be right back to where you are now.

On my non-M, I use water/meth instead of an intercooler, and it's running higher boost levels than either of the M's... although the compression of the M54 engine is lower. I wouldn't advise tuning for meth on a track car due to the high temperatures and increased risk of catastrophic failure in the event of a problem with the spray, but if you use it as supplemental cooling only, I'm not sure I see an issue. If not for power reasons, I would do it for engine longevity.
The first problem is there are no OEM quality systems , it's a more common issue to have the water/ meth leak though the nozzle and build up in the intake system when not in use , and the biggest issue is I have done the calcs I couldn't go through 1 30 min session on track with even one of the larger tanks . I see no meaningful decrease in performance on track now , admittedly I have a better engine setup than most of you now but if it's not broken don't fix it is my new mantra after the light weight flywheel mess .
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