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      02-19-2011, 04:18 AM   #1
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The cure for HOT! summer supercharger blues

I have the ESS VT2-500 and have nothing but great things to say about it...BUT! Like all FI, heat is a real buzz kill. I did a dyno last summer in 95F temps, high humidity on a dynojet using MS109 race fuel and a slightly smaller pulley (8 psi-ish) to achieve 440 SAE WHP. On the second run the whp dropped to 419 from heat. Had I done a third run, I'm sure it would have been closer to 400. So, on to my point..... These numbers were achieved with completely stock exhaust from headers to the tail pipe, race gas and a smaller pulley. I have always thought about using a water/meth system for cooling, knock suppression, and effective octane increase. How about increasing power without tuning the ECU? How about increasing power by tuning your water/meth kit to your car?? This can be done and it is being done. The FMIC does a great job reducing heat, but imagine dropping your AIT's as much as 100F!! further with the aid of a properly tuned water/meth kit at 50/50 mix. The key to this benefit is directly related to the position of your water/meth nozzle and proper nozzle size and progression rate. You should place your nozzle just post of the FMIC with a much smaller spray then you would think. The spray will be a very fine mist and will be fully atomized passing the AIT probe as it enters the combustion chamber. The result is a substantially cooled dense air charge= more O2= more fuel for more power. The other added benefit is a higher effective octane and cooler EGT's. This setup gives you more power and a safer way to run your engine. The Z4 M ECU will actually advance timing when it sees the higher EFFECTIVE octane and of course dense cold air will allow for more fuel. If the water/meth fails for whatever reason...it's not a problem because you are running on the ESS tune for the lower octane anyway. I would never consider tuning the ECU for more timing because I have water/meth in place. I'm saying you tune the water/meth to the current ECU tune. Renn-spec in Los Angeles which is a certified installer of the ESS VT2-500 kit has a guy there that tuned an AEM water/meth kit to his M3 with MAJOR!! results. He was able to gain 45whp and 32tq with doing just what I described. The AEM water/meth kit is a very simple system that allows boost related progression of the water/meth injection. This guy did about 8 dyno pulls to finally get the injection start boost, progression and nozzle size to produce these gains. I believe he used the smallest nozzle of the 3 that comes with the kit and started injection at about 2 psi. I've ordered my kit and will get this done in conjunction with my new supersprint step headers. I will get a before and after dyno of this project for those interested. I've included a link to the thread that talks about this water/meth tune. Guys that are buying the expensive water/meth kits with direct port injection are not seeing the benefits because the spray is to concentrated and can actually decrease power. Again, this method is not intended for you to up the boost or timing...it is a safe way for the ECU to see cool temps and higher effective octane...thus increasing power safely. I hope you guys enjoy this info and can apply it to your needs. I included my dyno from last summer. Cheers

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=803243
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      02-19-2011, 04:56 AM   #2
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niiiceee!!!!

your definatly going to need to upgrade your braking system.... lol
z4m with boost is pretty much a beast......
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      02-19-2011, 06:16 AM   #3
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the power I was getting this winter was F'n crazy! Truly night and day from summer power. The problem with all the extra power in the winter is you cant get the traction you get in summer. The summer gives you all the traction but your power is way down because of heat. The water/meth will give you winter power with summer traction= fun ride
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      02-19-2011, 07:37 AM   #4
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awesome read. you have any input on a water/ meth kit for us N/A guys?
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      02-19-2011, 11:11 AM   #5
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EVERY FI application should be running a kit. Even some NA run them w great effect. The main worry is the danger of running out of fluid, but if you're leaving your timing alone u should be good to go. Been a fan of these kits for ages
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      02-19-2011, 02:56 PM   #6
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what are the operating costs of a meth kit?
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      02-19-2011, 03:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle View Post
what are the operating costs of a meth kit?
Running a system w/o a good failsafe; if the map you are running has aggressive timing advance/boost pressure and the system fails for one reason or another risk engine failure.

EDIT:
it realy depends on the quality of the kit you buy. They average around 500-2000 dollars.

cost for a 5 gallon can for VIP M1 methanol costs around 55 dollars, I run 50/50 mix on my audi. One 1.5 gallon tank of w/m last me approx 45-50 gallons of gas on the street.

Last edited by sabbanick; 02-19-2011 at 03:48 PM.. Reason: ooops misread your post
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      02-19-2011, 08:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabbanick View Post
Running a system w/o a good failsafe; if the map you are running has aggressive timing advance/boost pressure and the system fails for one reason or another risk engine failure.

EDIT:
it realy depends on the quality of the kit you buy. They average around 500-2000 dollars.

cost for a 5 gallon can for VIP M1 methanol costs around 55 dollars, I run 50/50 mix on my audi. One 1.5 gallon tank of w/m last me approx 45-50 gallons of gas on the street.



If you advance timing or increase boost then you are absolutely correct! You will be hanging it all out without a fail safe. My article is based on running your current tune....and only tuning the water/meth to the current tune. You are only adjusting the nozzle size, start time of spray, and rate of progression and location of nozzle. You will never adjust the DME or boost psi. The gains are realized because the DME sees a cooler dense air charge and a higher EFFECTIVE octane (slower burn rate). The Z4 M DME(ECU) will automatically increase timing....especially in hot weather when it sees the higher "effective" octane and of course more fuel will be added because of the dense cool air charge. If the water/meth system fails for what ever reason it doesnt matter. The car is only running on the tune for it's specific octane and boost, so if the water/meth fails it just reverts to its current tune. We are not changing anything with the DME, the DME is changing on it's own because it sees favorable conditions..just like when you drive your car in freezing temps as opposed to 120F temps. The AEM kit can be purchased for about 400-500$$ and yes you can apply this to NA cars, but you will not see the same results as FI. Another factor is where ESS places the AIT probe. The biggest mistake people make is to quench the combustion chamber of too much water/meth and loosing power. This application is used extensively with huge turbo diesels towing heavy loads and in my aviation background was used it to get required power for high altitude take offs with turbo prop engines. The Germans were the first to use this tech for WW2 fighter planes. Again, the beauty of this setup is you actually gain more with a cheaper kit as opposed to a $1000 plus direct port 2D system. If you are running a huge turbo and advancing timing with extra boost..them you would want to invest in a HIGH dollar fail safe, highly intelligent system with boost dump. What I'm describing only requires a system that can increase spray with boost with automatic start boost settings. If the system fails it doesnt matter...because we are not altering the timing, boost or fueling. This setup is just an amazing way to fight off heat induced power loss and gain Knock protection Cheers guys.
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Last edited by fr8tdog; 02-19-2011 at 08:25 PM..
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      02-19-2011, 08:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fr8tdog View Post
If you advance timing or increase boost then you are absolutely correct! You will be hanging it all out without a fail safe. My article is based on running your current tune....and only tuning the water/meth to the current tune. You are only adjusting the nozzle size, start time of spray, and rate of progression and location of nozzle. You will never adjust the DME or boost psi. The gains are realized because the DME sees a cooler dense air charge and a higher EFFECTIVE octane (slower burn rate). The Z4 M DME(ECU) will automatically increase timing....especially in hot weather when it sees the higher "effective" octane and of course more fuel will be added because of the dense cool air charge. If the water/meth system fails for what ever reason it doesnt matter. The car is only running on the tune for it's specific octane and boost, so if the water/meth fails it just reverts to its current tune. We are not changing anything with the DME, the DME is changing on it's own because it sees favorable conditions..just like when you drive your car in freezing temps as opposed to 120F temps. The AEM kit can be purchased for about 400-500$$ and yes you can apply this to NA cars, but you will not see the same results as FI. Another factor is where ESS places the AIT probe. The biggest mistake people make is to quench the combustion chamber of too much water/meth and loosing power. This application is used extensively with huge turbo diesels towing heavy loads and in my aviation background was used it to get required power for high altitude take offs with turbo prop engines. The Germans were the first to use this tech for WW2 fighter planes. Again, the beauty of this setup is you actually gain more with a cheaper kit as opposed to a $1000 plus direct port 2D system. If you are running a huge turbo and advancing timing with extra boost..them you would want to invest in a HIGH dollar fail safe, highly intelligent system with boost dump. What I'm describing only requires a system that can increase spray with boost with automatic start boost settings. If the system fails it doesnt matter...because we are not altering the timing, boost or fueling. This setup is just an amazing way to fight off heat induced power loss and gain Knock protection Cheers guys.


Great post and thanks for the clarification. I apologize for making the assumption you were running a specific tune to utilize the benefits of methanol injection. I currently run a more aggressive tune on my BT audi with direct port injection, and made the previous post with that mindset. Obviously like you mentioned I run a kit that will dump boost by opening the N75 valve if a fault is detected in the system (aquamist hfs-6). Much more risks involved with the way I am utilizing methanols cooling and octane qualities.

Do you still plan on using the nitrous?
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      02-19-2011, 10:27 PM   #10
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no worries.... by the way, you have what I consider the best water/meth kit possible for your application. The Aquamist hfs-6 is an amazing system and was the kit I was going to use if I decided to keep my nitrous. I toyed with the idea of doing a direct port 100 shot nitrous with a direct port water/meth on top of the vt3 with a progressive nitrous controller. I changed plans and thought I was going to sell the car for other priorities and realized people didnt want a 500hp Z4 M for what it cost. My nitrous system is now off the car and laying in my garage. I may entertain the nitrous idea after going to the vt3 with a built motor, but I'm very close to just selling the nitrous and building the car with the vt3 and other supporting mods. The nitrous really is a love hate relationship, as it carries so much responsibility to run safely. Having said that, the torque gained with nitrous is tremendously addicting
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      02-19-2011, 11:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johanness View Post
EVERY FI application should be running a kit. Even some NA run them w great effect. The main worry is the danger of running out of fluid, but if you're leaving your timing alone u should be good to go. Been a fan of these kits for ages

you are absolutely correct! I'm proposing no adjustments to the current tune. Tremendous power gains can be realized by proper placement of the water/meth nozzle, proper nozzle size, proper activation time, and progression rate.

highlight notes:

1) nozzle just after the FMIC

2) smallest of the 3 AEM nozzle size about 160-170 flow

3) activation about 2 psi

4) boost controlled progressive flow rate to max at max boost

5) water/meth mix at 50/50%

6) power gains are realized because of reduced AIT and higher effective octane. DME makes the adjustments because of ESS built in allowance and cool dense air.

Cheers
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      02-19-2011, 11:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle View Post
what are the operating costs of a meth kit?

about $400-500 for the AEM kit. The water/meth can be done very very cheap if you mix your self. Or you can buy it already bottled for a reasonable price and at these flow rates it might be a once a week refill for a 1 gallon tank....obviously depends on how many miles and how hard your driving or boosting water/meth also keeps your motor clean of carbon deposits and egt's lower. My main interest is maintaining boosted power in the summer months
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      02-20-2011, 02:53 AM   #13
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I would up the timing a bit a moderate amount and let the fail-safes that are in the meth system do their work. I mean, is anyone really going to allow their fluid to run out? Very few people that drive our rides strike me as the type to ignore the goings-on within our engines/drivetrain. If anything, it's the exact opposite: we go overboard paying attention to every little thing. Either way, looking forward to your results fr8tdog. Maybe the ESS handheld is just the thing so that you can have various tunes to take advantage of this system?
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      02-20-2011, 06:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johanness View Post
I would up the timing a bit a moderate amount and let the fail-safes that are in the meth system do their work. I mean, is anyone really going to allow their fluid to run out? Very few people that drive our rides strike me as the type to ignore the goings-on within our engines/drivetrain. If anything, it's the exact opposite: we go overboard paying attention to every little thing. Either way, looking forward to your results fr8tdog. Maybe the ESS handheld is just the thing so that you can have various tunes to take advantage of this system?

If I can get 40-50whp and 30-40 tq without any adjustments to my existing ESS tune, I would rather stay with that safety net. I understand what your saying, but the problem is finding a fail safe to work with a centrifugal supercharger. A turbo is easy because the ability to dump boost instantly. The main risk wouldn't be running out of fluid, but would be a pump failure, partial failure, nozzle becoming clogged, failure in the water/meth line, water/meth controller failure and of course the bone head mistake of running out of fluid. One option for a supercharger would be a trip to a different map as a fail safe. For now, I'm going the safe route and see what gains can be had. Interesting idea about the ESS hand held though.
Cheers
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      02-20-2011, 07:28 AM   #15
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i might also add that on the track its much easier to run out of w/m secondary to the fact that the rate of consumption is exponentially increased. I have gone through 5 gallons of it in a day a certain tracks.

Overflow, underflow, no flow are the things to worry about in the system and these are the things that some of the entry level kits do not protect against. The AEM is a nicely packaged kit but it only includes a tank level meter i believe.

This is the perfect solution for how f8tdog using it, anything else would be overkill and unnecessary.
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      02-20-2011, 09:31 AM   #16
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Yea.... The AEM kit is just the right package for how I'm going to use water/meth. You're right, a Labonte or Aquamist would be a waste of money as I wouldn't use or need any of the many many features. My main reasoning for water/meth is just to get the cooler AIT and slightly higher effective octane to fight off summer heat power loss. Like the guy at Renn-spec showed with his E46 M3....there are major gains to be had without touching the DME and just tuning the water/meth to the car...safe and effective

here is a link for the kit
http://www.aemelectronics.com/1-gall...ection-kit-691
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      02-20-2011, 12:27 PM   #17
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idk....kinda scary if the installer effs it up.... at least for us N/A guys
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      02-20-2011, 01:54 PM   #18
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fr8tdog, I'm very glad to see you've decided to keep your car
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      02-20-2011, 02:29 PM   #19
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Thanks I'm actually pleased it didn't sell. Just need to suck it up and fly some extra trips and she's payed for. These cars are just too much fun to drive and I had too much money into it.
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      02-20-2011, 02:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z4-Villalona View Post
idk....kinda scary if the installer effs it up.... at least for us N/A guys
Yea... install errors are always a concern of mine to. The key to that one is obviously doing some serious homework and know and watch the guy you're using to turn the wrenches. The worst thing you can do is over spray and wash out a cylinder...ouch. Not sure about the benefits for NA or if it would even be worth the constant refill. FI produces soo much heat that benefits will be realized without question. The VT2-500 has an intercooler and still suffers from heat related power loss. The guy at Renn-spec has already produced a road map for water/meth on the VT2-500, so it should be a very simple project. As soon as I get the kit, I will get some results. The most difficult part of this project will be accessing the intercooler pipe for drilling and changing out a nozzle if needed.
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      02-20-2011, 03:11 PM   #21
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have you considered getting a more efficient intercooler?
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      02-20-2011, 03:28 PM   #22
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No I actually haven't thought of that. I'm going to see how this water/meth works out first because of the relatively easy install and price, not to mention someone has already done this to an E46 M3 with the VT2-500 with amazing results. I also like the idea of having a higher effective octane for a little extra insurance. I think ESS is going to use the same intercooler when they build the VT3 kit.....but not 100% sure.
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