Input requested: Brake pad for HPDE & street

[GyroF-16]

Looking for input on the next step for brake pads on my 07 Z4MC.

Background: I did 2 BMW CCA High Performance Drivers Schools last year, and plan to continue that pace. All were done with TYP 200 brake fluid and OEM pads. For the first school I was in D run group (hadn't been on track in 3 years), second was C. In both schools, near the end of the third session of the day I had some brake fade and backed off for the remainder of the session to let the brakes cool and recover. Was a bit cautious in the 4th (last) session and had no issues.
One of the inputs from my instructor in C group was that it was time to upgrade brake pads before running in B group next time.

I drive the car regularly in the non-winter months, and would like to find some pads that allow continued daily driving, but that will give me better fade-resistance on the track. I already have Castrol SRF fluid on hand, and will put that in soon. Oh, and I hate the dust from the OEM pads, and do not want a pad that would create dust that would etch or damage the finish of the EOM wheels.

My priorities:
1. More fade-resistant than my prior OEM pad/TYP 200 fluid setup.
2. Safe and quiet enough for daily driving
3. Brake dust that doesn't damage wheel finish with monthly washes/cleaning
4. Reduced dust over OEM (I know this is asking a lot along with increased performance)

So far, I'm considering:
PFC-08 - I'm told these last a long time (probably several years of driving at my 2 per year track event pace). Mixed reports on whether they are acceptable daily driving pads. Some reports or them being easy on rotors, other reports that they will eat rotors in daily driving. Noise is also an unknown. Also significant cost ($600 a set for all 4 corners).

Ferodo DS2500 - These seem to be more friendly for daily street driving, but seem to have a much higher peak operating temperature than OEM (950 vs 600-ish). But I've read mixed reviews on suitably for the track. Also varying reports on dusting relative to OEM. And no information on whether the dust is toxic and hard on wheel finish. Cost is more reasonable, but not cheap ($325 for 4 corners)

Please chime in with your experiences and recommendations for my next pads. Any firsthand experiences with these pads is welcome, as well as additional recommendations for other pads.

I hope to settle on a solution in the next 2 weeks, with the first track event in about a month.

Thanks in advance!

Gyro

[dc_wright]

I've run Akebono Euro, Hawk Street/Race, PFC Z-Rated, Hawk HP Plus, Ferodo DS2500, and currently I have EBC Yellow Stuff on the front and the Ferodo's still on the rear. I just did a track day on the Daytona DE course and the EBC's did really well. They've had no squeal and they're less dusty than the OEM pads. The Ferodo's never saw the track because they had an issue with the spring mechanism that holds them into the caliper piston. They kept working out and contacting the rotor which pushed the piston back and caused a long brake pedal. After several attempts to reform it to get it to lock in, I got tired of messing with them and bought the EBCs. The Ferodos on the rear have also been good, have just an occasional light squeal, and are only a bit more dusty than the EBCs. Car and Driver did a comparison test which helped influence the purchase.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/perform...c-yellowstuff/

[GyroF-16]

Thanks, dc!

Are you pleased with them in daily driving, too?

[schobyb]

Why compromise the balance between street and track? Get some ceramic street pads for no noise and low dust and a separate set of pads that provide the performance you need on track. It is really not much work to change brake pads, especially if you are doing only a couple track events per year. This is what I do and I like that before each track day I am getting a good look at the wheels, tires, and brakes for additional peace of mind.

[bananabun]

Originally Posted by schobyb

Why compromise the balance between street and track? Get some ceramic street pads for no noise and low dust and a separate set of pads that provide the performance you need on track. It is really not much work to change brake pads, especially if you are doing only a couple track events per year. This is what I do and I like that before each track day I am getting a good look at the wheels, tires, and brakes for additional peace of mind.

Do you change pads at the track? If not, how far is your drive to the track?

[schobyb]

No, I change pads in my garage the weekend before the event. I'm 60 miles from the track. I think even if I had a longer drive to the track, I would still prefer to have street pads on for everyday driving with no squealing and low dust. I've used Hawk HP+ for track days and had no issues yet running in intermediate group. Both groups I've run with do three 20 minute sessions per hour for beginner, intermediate, and advanced; so I'm only on track for 20 minutes, then off for 40 giving the car a chance to cool down.

[GyroF-16]

Thanks schobyb-
I am considering that option.
I seem to remember people reporting that Hawk pad dust was hard on the wheel finish or hardened in clumps and was hard to get off...
Have you had that experience?

[schobyb]

I did get some clumping on the inside of the wheels, if I remember correctly, it was only on the front. When I swap the Hawks out for my street pads I hit the wheels with a cleaner and power wash them.

[dc_wright]

Originally Posted by schobyb

No, I change pads in my garage the weekend before the event. I'm 60 miles from the track. I think even if I had a longer drive to the track, I would still prefer to have street pads on for everyday driving with no squealing and low dust. I've used Hawk HP+ for track days and had no issues yet running in intermediate group. Both groups I've run with do three 20 minute sessions per hour for beginner, intermediate, and advanced; so I'm only on track for 20 minutes, then off for 40 giving the car a chance to cool down.

If you keep a dedicated set of track rotors to go with the pads you won't have to go through the bedding process each time you swap your street set for the track set.

Originally Posted by GyroF-16

Thanks, dc!

Are you pleased with them in daily driving, too?

Update on the EBC yellow stuff. One day on the Daytona DE course and two days at Sebring and they're done. Not enough pad left for the full IMSA course day at Daytona tomorrow. Performance wise they've been great. No fade, limited dust, no squeal, but the apparent down side is they wear very quickly. The Ferodo's on the rear are done too, and showing some signs of breaking down. Hawk HP Plus now installed on all 4 corners. Guess I'll live with the dust and the squeal to get the wear life.

[3002 tii]

When I used to dual duty I ran PFC Z for street and 06 (now replaced by 08) for track. Running similar compounds from same manufacturer allowed me not having to worry about rebedding the rotors as much.

[GyroF-16]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

When I used to dual duty I ran PFC Z for street and 06 (now replaced by 08) for track. Running similar compounds from same manufacturer allowed me not having to worry about rebedding the rotors as much.

Thanks 3002 tii- I actually pulled the trigger on that option today. I got a great deal after talking to Clark at Apex Performance. I'll put the PFC 08s on the week before the Drivers School, then swap to the Z-rated when I get time in the week or two after. Looking forward to much improved track performance with the 08s, and low-dust street performance with the Zs.

I'll report back in a few weeks when I have my impressions of both.

Gyro

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by GyroF-16

Thanks 3002 tii- I actually pulled the trigger on that option today. I got a great deal after talking to Clark at Apex Performance. I'll put the PFC 08s on the week before the Drivers School, then swap to the Z-rated when I get time in the week or two after. Looking forward to much improved track performance with the 08s, and low-dust street performance with the Zs.

I'll report back in a few weeks when I have my impressions of both.

Gyro

While you're at it may as well get some fresh brake fluid. I've had succsss with both PFC and Castrol. Let us know how it goes.

[GyroF-16]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

While you're at it may as well get some fresh brake fluid. I've had succsss with both PFC and Castrol. Let us know how it goes.

Yes- Castrol SRF going in with the new pads.

[jmillet]

Originally Posted by GyroF-16

Looking for input on the next step for brake pads on my 07 Z4MC.

My priorities:
1. More fade-resistant than my prior OEM pad/TYP 200 fluid setup.
2. Safe and quiet enough for daily driving
3. Brake dust that doesn't damage wheel finish with monthly washes/cleaning
4. Reduced dust over OEM (I know this is asking a lot along with increased performance)

So far, I'm considering:
PFC-08 - I'm told these last a long time (probably several years of driving at my 2 per year track event pace). Mixed reports on whether they are acceptable daily driving pads. Some reports or them being easy on rotors, other reports that they will eat rotors in daily driving. Noise is also an unknown. Also significant cost ($600 a set for all 4 corners).

Ferodo DS2500 - These seem to be more friendly for daily street driving, but seem to have a much higher peak operating temperature than OEM (950 vs 600-ish). But I've read mixed reviews on suitably for the track. Also varying reports on dusting relative to OEM. And no information on whether the dust is toxic and hard on wheel finish. Cost is more reasonable, but not cheap ($325 for 4 corners)

Please chime in with your experiences and recommendations for my next pads. Any firsthand experiences with these pads is welcome, as well as additional recommendations for other pads.

I hope to settle on a solution in the next 2 weeks, with the first track event in about a month.

Thanks in advance!

Gyro

Your priorities cannot be met with a single brake pad. There are two categories of brake pads: street and competition. Street pads do not perform well under high temperature track braking and competition pads are dusty, corrosive, noisy, and do not stop well when cold. I have used a variety of street and competition pads over the 20 years I've been doing driving school events and am currently running PF08 brake pads with Toyo R888 tires for track use and Akebono Euro pads with street tires (Bridgestone RE760) for daily driving.
I prep my car at home prior to the driving event and drive up to 100 miles one way to local road course tracks such as Pacific Raceways and The Ridge.

[bananabun]

Originally Posted by jmillet

Your priorities cannot be met with a single brake pad. There are two categories of brake pads: street and competition. Street pads do not perform well under high temperature track braking and competition pads are dusty, corrosive, noisy, and do not stop well when cold. I have used a variety of street and competition pads over the 20 years I've been doing driving school events and am currently running PF08 brake pads with Toyo R888 tires for track use and Akebono Euro pads with street tires (Bridgestone RE760) for daily driving.
I prep my car at home prior to the driving event and drive up to 100 miles one way to local road course tracks such as Pacific Raceways and The Ridge.

How is the drive there and back, and how do track pads perform on the street for you? I have 100-400 miles between myself and some tracks, so not sure if I can/should do the drive with track pads. That's the biggest reason I was able to justify a BBK so I can swap pads easily at the track. Unfortunately, that also means carrying a jack and jack stands...

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by bananabun

How is the drive there and back, and how do track pads perform on the street for you? I have 100-400 miles between myself and some tracks, so not sure if I can/should do the drive with track pads. That's the biggest reason I was able to justify a BBK so I can swap pads easily at the track. Unfortunately, that also means carrying a jack and jack stands...

You're putting WAY too much thoughts into this. Just because they're track pads doesn't mean they don't work on the street. You just have to be cognizant of that first brake application when it's been driven for an extended period of time without the use of brakes, that it takes about 15-20% more pedal pressure to slow it down like when it's hot. Otherwise MOST track pads, unless you go into the sprint only pads, when operated cold has similar or close to street pad level bite. The super high-end, RACE ONLY pads may take a couple of applications before they'll fully bite when it's 40º outside, but for OUR use those aren't likely to be very rotor and wheel friendly (because racecar).

There are times when I get lazy and leave Hawk DTC60s on the car for weeks on end. My boss likes them because he hears me coming from a mile away. I hate it because my wife knows I'm coming home LATE. But from a operating and safety standpoint, unless it's freakin' cold outside (and where I live, that's like 62º), there's absolutely no reason why I can't drive a few hundred miles to and from the track on track pads.

[bananabun]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You're putting WAY too much thoughts into this. Just because they're track pads doesn't mean they don't work on the street. You just have to be cognizant of that first brake application when it's been driven for an extended period of time without the use of brakes, that it takes about 15-20% more pedal pressure to slow it down like when it's hot. Otherwise MOST track pads, unless you go into the sprint only pads, when operated cold has similar or close to street pad level bite. The super high-end, RACE ONLY pads may take a couple of applications before they'll fully bite when it's 40º outside, but for OUR use those aren't likely to be very rotor and wheel friendly (because racecar).

There are times when I get lazy and leave Hawk DTC60s on the car for weeks on end. My boss likes them because he hears me coming from a mile away. I hate it because my wife knows I'm coming home LATE. But from a operating and safety standpoint, unless it's freakin' cold outside (and where I live, that's like 62º), there's absolutely no reason why I can't drive a few hundred miles to and from the track on track pads.

You're probably right, and I guess it comes with experience. The various manufacturer websites make it seem like street and track pads are mutually exclusive use cases. The reality might be different, but I like to get real-world opinions when I can. Thanks!

[CTMP4me]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You just have to be cognizant of that first brake application when it's been driven for an extended period of time without the use of brakes, that it takes about 15-20% more pedal pressure to slow it down like when it's hot.

+1

For context, on Pagid RS29s all around, the first brake application feels like a normal non-performance street car with OEM brakes - while it's not what what you want at the track, you will not be out-braked by the Camrys / Civics / SUVs around you in traffic.

[bananabun]

Originally Posted by CTMP4me

+1

For context, on Pagid RS29s all around, the first brake application feels like a normal non-performance street car with OEM brakes - while it's not what what you want at the track, you will not be out-braked by the Camrys / Civics / SUVs around you in traffic.

That really does put it into context!

[GyroF-16]

Okay - did the Drivers School last weekend with the PFC 08 pads.
In short, I thought they were great.

I drove them on the street for a few days before the school. Did some bedding right after installing them. I thought the stopping action was great (better than stock) under heavy breaking, and it only got better as they got warm- then it was truly impressive. They dust a bit (especially under repeated, heavy braking - like for bedding), but it washes off easily.

On the track, I was really impressed, too. They were so much better and different than OEM brakes that I spent the first session adapting to them. The initial bite is substantial, and the braking effectiveness is markedly more than OEM. So I had to learn to brake much later to enter each turn at my desired speed. I didn't notice much warm-up required to get to full effectivness- they were good from the start.
I think I experienced a bit of fade at the end of my 4th session, after several pretty fast laps. When it happened, there seemed to be reduced response to initial pedal pressure (which surprised me), but by increasing the pressure (quite a bit), they were effective again. I'm wondering whether opening up the front brake duct openings would help for my next track day.

I've driven several hundred miles since the track day with the PFC 08s still on. Even in morning commutes with the temps in the 40s, they were plenty good (at least as good as OEM) from the first application. There is a bit of a "groan" sound (like OEM but more pronounced) when braking, and occasionally squeaking when braking at very low speeds (barely moving).
I'm a little concerned with preserving my rotor life, or I'd just leave the 08s on until the next drivers school in September. The braking (even in cool weather) is great, the noise is minimal, and the dust is no worse than OEM, maybe a little better. As it is, I'll put the Z compound pads on in the next few weeks when I find some time.

I'll update again then to report on the Z compound.

Meanwhile- anybody have a positive change from opening up the brake ducts (removing the riveted-in panels that block half of the opening on the front of the wheel well liners)?

Gyro

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by GyroF-16

Okay - did the Drivers School last weekend with the PFC 08 pads.
In short, I thought they were great.

I drove them on the street for a few days before the school. Did some bedding right after installing them. I thought the stopping action was great (better than stock) under heavy breaking, and it only got better as they got warm- then it was truly impressive. They dust a bit (especially under repeated, heavy braking - like for bedding), but it washes off easily.

On the track, I was really impressed, too. They were so much better and different than OEM brakes that I spent the first session adapting to them. The initial bite is substantial, and the braking effectiveness is markedly more than OEM. So I had to learn to brake much later to enter each turn at my desired speed. I didn't notice much warm-up required to get to full effectivness- they were good from the start.
I think I experienced a bit of fade at the end of my 4th session, after several pretty fast laps. When it happened, there seemed to be reduced response to initial pedal pressure (which surprised me), but by increasing the pressure (quite a bit), they were effective again. I'm wondering whether opening up the front brake duct openings would help for my next track day.

I've driven several hundred miles since the track day with the PFC 08s still on. Even in morning commutes with the temps in the 40s, they were plenty good (at least as good as OEM) from the first application. There is a bit of a "groan" sound (like OEM but more pronounced) when braking, and occasionally squeaking when braking at very low speeds (barely moving).
I'm a little concerned with preserving my rotor life, or I'd just leave the 08s on until the next drivers school in September. The braking (even in cool weather) is great, the noise is minimal, and the dust is no worse than OEM, maybe a little better. As it is, I'll put the Z compound pads on in the next few weeks when I find some time.

I'll update again then to report on the Z compound.

Meanwhile- anybody have a positive change from opening up the brake ducts (removing the riveted-in panels that block half of the opening on the front of the wheel well liners)?

Gyro

Removing the panel from the stock "duct" doesn't do anything except throw debris on the tire. If you really need ducting you'll have to DIY. There are threads here on that, it's not simple but can be done.

With little to go on I'll venture you'd benefit from working on braking technique vs. ducting. Lots of friends I've driven with have managed fade and learned to manage brakes better through technique. This has yielded fantastic results, and faster lap times too due to the "side effects" on balance and weight transfer going into corners.

If you've mastered technique, then you need ducting or larger rotors (greater thermal reserve). Note: if you're noticing fade, applying more pressure and accommodating through force isn't recommended. Sounds like the brakes were saying "cool us down", best to listen. The next step after that isn't good.

If there's some room for technique upgrades, then this "classroom session" by The Hack is most helpful. Have a look. It's even more helpful with a good coach--can't tell you how many folks I've drove with swore they were doing X but doing Y, or doing X but adding in Z. Oh, and that applies to me too! "But I'm not re-stabbing at the pedal at the end of the braking zone/cycle!" Sure I wasn't!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...46&postcount=7

[dc_wright]

Originally Posted by GyroF-16

I think I experienced a bit of fade at the end of my 4th session, after several pretty fast laps. When it happened, there seemed to be reduced response to initial pedal pressure (which surprised me), but by increasing the pressure (quite a bit), they were effective again. I'm wondering whether opening up the front brake duct openings would help for my next track day.

If the pedal height was staying constant but it was taking more pressure, then yes, you were getting above the upper temp limit on the pads. If it was taking more pedal travel, then you might need to look at the brake fluid you're using.