Tempted to get a Z4 - talk me in/out of it

[Manxman1950]

Originally Posted by CT-Scott

Hey guys, I'm back.

I can't believe it was 3 years ago that I first created this post and I still haven't done *ANYTHING*. Yup, I'm still driving my '02 Lexus SC430. I'm really sick of it now, though, and I'm fairly confident that this is the year that I'll *FINALLY* be moving on to something new.

I was starting to lean towards a Scion FRS / Subaru BRZ / Toyota 86 since it should also give me some comfort on the reliability/maintenance-cost side of things, but my wife was sad about me not having a convertible, so I started debating the Z4 again. And even though I still like the look (top-down) of the original Z4 styling better than the 2nd-gen, I'm leaning towards the newer model mainly because of the retractable hardtop. I haven't test-driven a 2nd gen yet (and I still only have the one, very limited, experience of driving the 1st gen that I documented in this thread).

Anyway, I thought it would be fun to bump this thread and hopefully get some of you to offer your opinion about the merits of the 1st gen vs the 2nd gen.

Welcome back - I joined the forum recently after purchasing an M roadster last year, which replaced my 335is. I love it, but couldn't bring myself to drive it on salted roads in the winter.
Given your past experience with Japanese cars and concerns over reliability, have you considered the current Mazda Miata/MX5? Seems to me it would give you the handling and convertible experience you are looking for, without the surfeit of power that may get you in trouble with the local law enforcement🙂

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by CT-Scott

Hey guys, I'm back.

I can't believe it was 3 years ago that I first created this post and I still haven't done *ANYTHING*. Yup, I'm still driving my '02 Lexus SC430. I'm really sick of it now, though, and I'm fairly confident that this is the year that I'll *FINALLY* be moving on to something new.

I was starting to lean towards a Scion FRS / Subaru BRZ / Toyota 86 since it should also give me some comfort on the reliability/maintenance-cost side of things, but my wife was sad about me not having a convertible, so I started debating the Z4 again. And even though I still like the look (top-down) of the original Z4 styling better than the 2nd-gen, I'm leaning towards the newer model mainly because of the retractable hardtop. I haven't test-driven a 2nd gen yet (and I still only have the one, very limited, experience of driving the 1st gen that I documented in this thread).

Anyway, I thought it would be fun to bump this thread and hopefully get some of you to offer your opinion about the merits of the 1st gen vs the 2nd gen.

Some of the early E89 Z4 cars with turbocharged engines had bad high pressure fuel pumps. As I recall this was an issue on Sdrive 35l models in 2009 and 2010. The SDrive 30i models in those years used the normally aspirated N52 engine found also in the E85 Z4 which is a solid engine. The one to avoid is the N54 I think. Aim for an N55 which I understand had the fuel pump issue corrected.

[CT-Scott]

Originally Posted by Manxman1950

Given your past experience with Japanese cars and concerns over reliability, have you considered the current Mazda Miata/MX5?

Yeah, I do like the look of the current body style. I think my main concern is that it might not have enough headroom for me with the top up (I'm 6'2"). But it might be worth seeing one in person.

Originally Posted by Huz-Z

Some of the early E89 Z4 cars with turbocharged engines had bad high pressure fuel pumps. As I recall this was an issue on Sdrive 35l models in 2009 and 2010. The SDrive 30i models in those years used the normally aspirated N52 engine found also in the E85 Z4 which is a solid engine. The one to avoid is the N54 I think. Aim for an N55 which I understand had the fuel pump issue corrected.

Thanks for the tips. I guess I'll have to do some more Googling to learn what some of those codes mean (e.g., N54).

And just to show how little I know...I was thinking that all of the current-gen Z4's were turbo. Turbos worry me from a maintenance perspective, so it's interesting to learn that they did make some models that didn't have a turbo.

That said, there are some blog posts online about this Jalopnik writer (Doug DeMuro - no longer writing for Jalopnik) who bought CarMax's MaxCare extended warranty for his Land Rover (I think at the time - several years ago - it cost about $2300) and he ended up getting more than his money's worth with them fixing over $8000 worth of repairs. So my current thinking is to buy the car through CarMax and get their extended warranty.

[CT-Scott]

Meanwhile, my SC430's check engine light went on about a week ago, and I'm worried about how that could impact my trade-in value. I could fix it, but I hate to put money into the SC430 knowing that I just want to trade it in. But I worry that if I *don't* fix it they will use it as a reason to cut a significant chunk off of whatever they offer me for it. FWIW, KBB indicates that the trade-in value is $5200-7200. If anyone has any thoughts on this, let me know.

Back to the Z4...A local dealer had a red 2012 Z4 sDrive28i (auto transmission w/paddle shifters). The red was beautiful, but it's not one of my top color choices. Also, I really think I want to go with a manual transmission. I mainly wanted to see one up close, sit in it, and see how it handles.

The salesman rode along, which caused me to focus as much on him as the car, but he indicated that I could probably get approval to sign the car out if I wanted to drive it home to show my wife. She's out all day, but I told him I might come back to do that.

I was a little disappointed with the power steering, as I didn't think I got as good of a feeling of the road as compared to the BMW 1-series and 3-series cars my brother has owned. I'm sure I could live with it, and I don't think it was any worse than my SC430, but I really wanted a noticeable "driving experience" upgrade from my SC430. I seem to recall reading that the power steering may have been a common complaint with the Z4. Are there certain years/models that are known to be better/worse with this?

[Huz-Z]

If you go to a site like BMWvin.com you can enter the car's vin and find out what engine it has. The sdrive 28 you drove has an N20 for example. I think you would like an sdrive 35i or 35is but if you really want hydraulic steering you want a 2006-2008 Z4M.

[CT-Scott]

Huz-Z, didn't you previously guide me towards the non-turbo SDrive30i?

Also, anyone have any thoughts on my SC430's check engine light issue? Given the fact that my car is old (2002) and high mileage (135K), my understanding (from Googling) is that CarMax is just going to sell my car to auction. So would the CEL issue make much of an impact on their offer? I really don't want to spend a chunk of money to fix it before trading it in, unless it's going to more than pay for itself in the trade-in offer.

[Efthreeoh]

OP, so just to qualify as to where I speak, I've owned BMWs for almost 30 years now. I do all my own maintenance and repairs. Of the four I've owned, with three still in the active fleet, I've taken three of the four to the following mileage: 256,000 (E30), 175,000 (Z3), 324,000 (E90). The Z4 Coupe I acquired in 2014 at 23,000 miles (now at 66,000).

My opinion is if you are looking at owning a BMW and your major concern is the cost of maintenance and repair, and "reliability" (that's a difficult definition), then you are not looking at the right manufacturer for you. Almost every thread from 2014 till now you have mentioned "reliability". For the average owner (read as not an enthusiast) who is accustomed to Japanese "reliability", owning a BMW becomes a nightmare. I've seen it happen over and over. The expense of a BMW does not equal a more reliable car.

Find a newer Lexus, Infinity, or Acura. Please take no offense, as none is intended; it's just you look at BMW ownership in terms of reliability, which is a flawed approach. Your last post is illustrative of this. You have a 135,000 Lexus and it now has a check engine light. It could be something simple and not to expensive to fix, but you are considering how it will affect the trade in value at CarMax over it. Change the make of car to "BMW" and you'll have a stroke. I guarantee that you'll get a check engine light in a BMW way before 135,000 miles, so think about that. And with your SC430, I'd bet it is just a simple as an O2 sensor. You can get your car scanned at Advanced Auto Parts for free, so at least you'll possibly know what needs to be repaired to make the light go away.

I bought my Z4 at CarMax. Do not buy a BMW from CarMax, because they don't understand BMW. CarMax is a scam, and no different than any other used car dealer (they just make the experience more "new-car dealership" like). The example I have is my Z4. CarMax changes the oil on every car it sells, I immediately changed the oil in my Z4 after buying it from CarMax. I discovered they used an aftermarket oil filter element in it, which did not fit well and was partially crushed, and only God knows what kind of oil they used (I'd bet not BMW LL01-spec). The day after I picked it up, the low coolant light came on; not a big deal since I obviously keep BMW coolant around and topped it off. Third issue, a few months into ownership I changed the cabin filter and engine airfilter, only to discover the intake airbox half full of a mouse nest. And the battery was replaced (I assume by CarMax). It is the wrong sized battery and doesn't fit BMWs holddown mechanism for the Z4 battery tray; and the battery vent tube was completely missing, which is critical in a BMW since the battery is in the trunk and any battery acid leakage needs to be properly vented outside the vehicle. Finally, the throwout bearing on my Z4 was noisy. I didn't catch it during the brief test drive because it takes time and heat buildup to show itself. I tried to get CarMax to replace it, and they told me to pound sand (I spent more time arguing with CarMax about it than it would take me to replace the bearing). So CarMax says they do a 100-point "inspection" by "their" car "experts", well CarMax missed a whole lot of stuff on my Z4, which any BMW specialist would have caught right off the bat. Oh, and the cabin airfilter was full of debris as well, so they didn't check that either.

If you really want a BMW, then buy one from a dealer as a CPO (you get a warranty up to 4 years and 100,000 miles), and later shop for an extended warranty if you plan on keeping the BMW past 100,000 miles.

My 2 cents.

[CT-Scott]

Efthreeoh, thanks for the reply, though I'm not sure how to interpret part of it. If you're suggesting that I think a car is unreliable when its CEL goes on, you're mistaken. My SC430 already had a CEL in the past (twice, I think) and I've had the necessary repairs done. One time did require a new O2 sensor, which cost me about $270 for the part and labor. I have a code reader (just got it delivered by Amazon yesterday - it's a bluetooth OBD2 reader that I can use with an iPhone app) and one of the codes is related to the O2 sensor. The other codes are related to the evap. In case you're curious here are the specific codes:

- P0135 - O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Bank 1 Sensor 1
- P0440 - Evaporative Emission System
- P0441 - Evaporative Emission System Incorrect Purge Flow
- P0446 - Evaporative Emission System Vent Control Circuit

Because I'm not handy with fixing cars, I have to bring it somewhere. Maybe one day I'll start doing some YouTube watching and try to pick up learning some basic car repairs as a hobby, but for now I'm clueless. I couldn't remember what the O2 sensor repair set me back (I thought it was closer to $500), but I found the printout in my file folder this morning and saw that it was $270, so I'm tempted to just get the repair done.

But I don't know if this will fix the evap codes. And so I end up with my original dilemma: do I get the repairs done for a car I just want to trade in, or just trade it in as-is and hope that the dealer won't discount their offer by more than the cost of the repairs. Anyone have any insight/guesses on that?

As far as my BMW reliability/costs are concerned, and my interest in that CarMax extended warranty...there are two factors:

1) My brother's last 3 cars have been BMWs. He brings his in to a BMW dealer for every scheduled maintenance and it seems like every time he goes in, they find something that needs fixing, and it's rarely inexpensive. Like me, he knows nothing about fixing cars.

2) I don't have a BMW dealer nearby, so if it's recommended that I bring it to one for every bit of service, I'll have to drive about 30 mins to do so. In addition to worrying that they'll be more likely to recommend "fixing" things that aren't important, I don't like the idea of paying the high hourly rate that I'm sure they charge. My hope is that most of you will tell me that if I can find a reputable small shop with experience working on BMWs, that that should be fine. Then again, if I do end up getting a CarMax warranty, I probably would just bring it to the BMW dealer.

As for CarMax...yeah, I agree that they're probably not the best place to get the car. It's really all about getting their extended warranty. Again, there's a whole history of Jalopnik postings about a guy who bought an unreliable Land Rover and a $3000 extended warranty and had over $8000 in repairs covered. My understanding is that the CarMax extended warranty is unique in that it covers a set number of years and miles *above* what is already on the car, so you can buy an older, higher-mileage luxury car, get their extended warranty, and not have to worry about things so much.

The recommendation to buy another Lexus isn't going to work for me right now. I've had my Lexus for a long while and have been quite happy with the reliability of it, but haven't enjoyed the driving experience. My perfect car would be a Japanese AWD convertible that handles like a sports car. But no such thing exists. So I have to weigh what's most important to me right now, and right now I want to get back in to a sub-$30K convertible that handles like a sports car. If it turns out to be a reliability/repair-cost nightmare, I'll chalk it up to an expensive lesson learned, but at least I'll get the itch out of my system.

Lastly, I tend to over-think and over-research things, and I've never (yet) owned a BMW, which is why all of the posts you can find from here are focused on pre-buying concerns. But don't interpret that to mean that it's the most important factor in my buying decision.

[bosstones]

I'm late to the party and admittedly not reading through all 3 pages, but....talk you out of a Z4? No. I've had my Moupe since Nov '07 and still love it. That said, I don't drive it in the winter; not because of RWD + snow but because of the heaps of salt the roads are bestowed w/ here. Prior to the Moupe, I drove many years in Chicago winters w/ RWD....3 on A/S tires and many more w/ snow tires. Honestly, I didn't have an issue. CT does get a 'bit' more snow than we do here, but, as an example, I had no problems at all during my 23 mile (one way) commute one morning when the roads weren't plowed and we got something like 8-10" of snow. Knowing how to handle RWD in snow is a must. Ice on the road....dicey regardless of tires and FWD/RWD/AWD. Done that, too, and made it just fine.

[chickdr]

Have you considered the Infiniti G37 Convertible? Seems like the perfect answer for you. It will be newer, has a hardtop and can be had with a manual. It is also Japanese for the reliability you seek.

[Punisher3.0si]

Toyota has their fair share of problems. I think people give them too much credit. They have very common evap and O2 sensor problems. In the mid 2000s they had a lot of ECM problems.

You are going to run into problems with any car. Some more than others but I don't find BMW to be any worse than other companies. The price will obviously be higher with BMW.

[CT-Scott]

Originally Posted by chickdr

Have you considered the Infiniti G37 Convertible? Seems like the perfect answer for you. It will be newer, has a hardtop and can be had with a manual. It is also Japanese for the reliability you seek.

I did happen upon that particular model the other day. Years back I was interested in the G35. However, the G37 doesn't do anything for me style-wise. I'd probably be more apt to go for something like a 370Z, even though it's a softtop, but I don't love the look of that one, either.

Feel free to recommend other makes/models if you'd like, but I think I mentioned that I over-think/research these things, so I doubt there's anything out there that comes close to my requirements that I'm not already familiar with.

Honestly, at this point I know I want a sports car, and it's probably down to the BMW Z4 (with a preference for the newer gen because of the hardtop, though I actually prefer the look of the prior gen and it sounds like the prior gen might offer better steering feel), or a Scion FR-S / Subaru BRZ / Toyota 86.

The 86 and its brethren would probably give me a little better handling, better gas mileage, and lower maintenance costs, but they wouldn't give me the top-down feature.

Another BMW I've thought about over the last few years has been a 3-series (or M3) convertible. I know this has been replaced by the 4-series, and you can even get that with AWD now, but those are out of my budget. For the slightly-older 3-series, I like the look of them OK, but they really don't compare style-wise to the Z4. With a 3-series, I look at it and think, "That's a very nice looking luxury car that I wouldn't mind owning." But with the Z4, I just think "Wow, that's beautiful."

Originally Posted by Punisher3.0si

Toyota has their fair share of problems. I think people give them too much credit. They have very common evap and O2 sensor problems. In the mid 2000s they had a lot of ECM problems.

Yeah, my SC430 has the CEL on now and one of the codes points to an O2 sensor. I replaced one once before for about $280 parts & labor. In another thread I started today asking for advice about that, someone linked me to an O2 sensor on sale at Amazon for less than $50 and it's supposedly an easy self-repair. Just out of curiosity, with a current-gen Z4, would I be able to do some of these types of things myself if I wanted to learn? Not a big deal if the answer is 'no', because my plan is to get an extended warranty, but I'm always open to looking to learn new things (if/when I have the time) and auto repair is something I've been wanting to learn one of these days. I suspect, though, that with so many electronics in these 2000+ vehicles, that it probably gets harder and harder to do your own maintenance.

Let's talk more about the Z4...

Today, I ran an errand with my daughter. She's a freshman in college now (Art-focused). As far as cars are concerned, she's all about comfort/practicality, can feel claustrophobic in a small car, and she's prone to getting car-sick. I pulled into the local dealer that had the red Z4 I test-drove yesterday to show it to her and she thought it looked beautiful, but she had zero interest in it because it was so small. Thankfully, now that she's in college, I no longer have to take her wants/needs into consideration when I'm purchasing a car for me.

I wasn't originally interested in red for a Z4, but looking again at that red Z4 today I have to say that it looked gorgeous, and I was thinking that maybe I should add red to my list of preferred colors. The fact that it wasn't a manual trans was a big downer for me, though, which leads to my next question for everyone...

So I want a manual transmission. But these auto Z4's have these fancy paddle shifters, which I think I've read before are a pretty cool thing in auto racing. Should I consider going auto and learning to use/enjoy the paddle shifters? Or for those of you who love to shfit, is manual trans still the way to go?

[bosstones]

I have what I call 'flippy paddles' in my X1 and it is no substitute for manual. It'll probably be better once I do the Alpina flash, but it still won't have the same level of human/machine engagement that a manual does (and that makes driving fun....for me). It is subjective, though.

[pungo]

Reading thought your thread, you really do seem to overthink things, seeing as you started this thread 3 years ago and you still haven't pulled the trigger, it'll probably along time before you end up with something. It seems as though you have difficulty making discussions on your own and that's why you are asking others to make up your mind for you on both car and transmission type.

With that said, the E85 and E89 have little in common as far as drive and feel besides the Z4 badge, so asking about a E89 in a E85/86 forum are going to give you mixed results. Maybe you should be talking with with the E89 folks?

[CT-Scott]

Originally Posted by pungo

With that said, the E85 and E89 have little in common as far as drive and feel besides the Z4 badge, so asking about a E89 in a E85/86 forum are going to give you mixed results. Maybe you should be talking with with the E89 folks?

I thought this was a general Z4 thread, non-model-year specific. Is that not the case?

[pungo]

Originally Posted by CT-Scott

I thought this was a general Z4 thread, non-model-year specific. Is that not the case?

Here's the E89 specific forum http://e89.zpost.com/forums/

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by CT-Scott

Efthreeoh, thanks for the reply, though I'm not sure how to interpret part of it. If you're suggesting that I think a car is unreliable when its CEL goes on, you're mistaken. My SC430 already had a CEL in the past (twice, I think) and I've had the necessary repairs done. One time did require a new O2 sensor, which cost me about $270 for the part and labor. I have a code reader (just got it delivered by Amazon yesterday - it's a bluetooth OBD2 reader that I can use with an iPhone app) and one of the codes is related to the O2 sensor. The other codes are related to the evap. In case you're curious here are the specific codes:

- P0135 - O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Bank 1 Sensor 1
- P0440 - Evaporative Emission System
- P0441 - Evaporative Emission System Incorrect Purge Flow
- P0446 - Evaporative Emission System Vent Control Circuit

Because I'm not handy with fixing cars, I have to bring it somewhere. Maybe one day I'll start doing some YouTube watching and try to pick up learning some basic car repairs as a hobby, but for now I'm clueless. I couldn't remember what the O2 sensor repair set me back (I thought it was closer to $500), but I found the printout in my file folder this morning and saw that it was $270, so I'm tempted to just get the repair done.

But I don't know if this will fix the evap codes. And so I end up with my original dilemma: do I get the repairs done for a car I just want to trade in, or just trade it in as-is and hope that the dealer won't discount their offer by more than the cost of the repairs. Anyone have any insight/guesses on that?

As far as my BMW reliability/costs are concerned, and my interest in that CarMax extended warranty...there are two factors:

1) My brother's last 3 cars have been BMWs. He brings his in to a BMW dealer for every scheduled maintenance and it seems like every time he goes in, they find something that needs fixing, and it's rarely inexpensive. Like me, he knows nothing about fixing cars.

2) I don't have a BMW dealer nearby, so if it's recommended that I bring it to one for every bit of service, I'll have to drive about 30 mins to do so. In addition to worrying that they'll be more likely to recommend "fixing" things that aren't important, I don't like the idea of paying the high hourly rate that I'm sure they charge. My hope is that most of you will tell me that if I can find a reputable small shop with experience working on BMWs, that that should be fine. Then again, if I do end up getting a CarMax warranty, I probably would just bring it to the BMW dealer.

As for CarMax...yeah, I agree that they're probably not the best place to get the car. It's really all about getting their extended warranty. Again, there's a whole history of Jalopnik postings about a guy who bought an unreliable Land Rover and a $3000 extended warranty and had over $8000 in repairs covered. My understanding is that the CarMax extended warranty is unique in that it covers a set number of years and miles *above* what is already on the car, so you can buy an older, higher-mileage luxury car, get their extended warranty, and not have to worry about things so much.

The recommendation to buy another Lexus isn't going to work for me right now. I've had my Lexus for a long while and have been quite happy with the reliability of it, but haven't enjoyed the driving experience. My perfect car would be a Japanese AWD convertible that handles like a sports car. But no such thing exists. So I have to weigh what's most important to me right now, and right now I want to get back in to a sub-$30K convertible that handles like a sports car. If it turns out to be a reliability/repair-cost nightmare, I'll chalk it up to an expensive lesson learned, but at least I'll get the itch out of my system.

Lastly, I tend to over-think and over-research things, and I've never (yet) owned a BMW, which is why all of the posts you can find from here are focused on pre-buying concerns. But don't interpret that to mean that it's the most important factor in my buying decision.

Regarding your car, it looks like another O2 sensor has gone bad. It is not unusual for any car to lose O2 sensors. Evap stuff, could be as simple as the gas cap is no longer holding vacuum (the car tests it by pressurizing the fuel tank to check for leaks.)

My issue with CarMax is they over-price their cars and don't negotiate on the price. Then they add in an extended warranty at a significant additional cost to the buyer. And my experience has been they don't even approach anywhere near a deep-level inspection (as they say they do) to justify the higher sale price. It's all smoke and mirrors IMO. I would have taken my car back under the 5-day period had I not paid the $350 non-refundable shipping cost to get the car from Ohio to Virginia. That, and the fact that the E86 Z4 3.0 Coupe is a great car. I fucking love mine.

[chickdr]

At least you seem to be focusing down. The auto in the E85 Z4 is not DSG which makes it less sporty than some although I like its action. If you want a sportier alternative, try the M Roadster version which is manual only and has better steering feel. I will be shocked if you don't like the M Roadster unless it rides too harshly for your needs.

[Hawkeye]

1st Gen - more of a drivers car. 2nd gen is hardtop convertible but it is more bloated and similar to a 3 series from what I understand. More comfort and less fun.

For me it is not my only vehicle so I would go for the older, more fun version.

[jawolf]

Originally Posted by CT-Scott

Thanks for the additional comments. I do love the look of the coupe, but I think I'm still a bit drawn to the idea of having a convertible. I'll have to mull that over a bit more. Of course, the coupes are harder to come by, anyway.

So does no one have any thoughts on those black wheels from the pic I posted? Are those stock?

I have a 2011 Z4 that has the retractable hard top and I love it. I have the non-turboed version. I have had cars with a lot more horse power but I have never had a car that handles or stops like this one.

[CT-Scott]

Just wanted to check back in to mention that I had a chance to do some actual work on my current car (Lexus SC430) today. I think I mentioned that I had a CEL which pointed to a bad O2 sensor (driver front side) and a large evap leak. On the ClubLexus.com forum someone suggested I look under the hood for a loose or cracked vacuum hose. I was bringing the car in today for an oil change anyway so I asked them to take a look. They were confident that that wouldn't likely be the issue. And I guess they never bothered to look. After I got back home, I checked the forum and someone else pushed me to check and provided a photo of where I needed to look (since I had no idea). Sure enough, one of the hoses was completely detached. I reattached the hose, reset the codes, and everything is clear now. From what I've Googled, a loose hose can also cause the O2 sensor code to mistakenly be raised, so I'm cautiously hopeful that I may have actually fixed the problem.

Anyway, I'll post back the next time I have some Z4 news to share.

[gpraceman]

There is a lot of hemming and hawing going on. I went through that a bit myself. What made up my mind was actually driving the Z4. I drove a 1st gen (2.5i, 3.0i and M) and a 2nd gen. Driving the M made up my mind and that's what I ended up with. The 2nd gens were nice, but I actually liked the lines of the 1st gen better. The 2nd gen seemed like just another car, whereas the 1st gen felt more special (especially the M, of course).