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      12-03-2014, 12:56 PM   #1
Dalko43
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Hello all.

I've been a 2013 335is owner and active member of the e90 forum for some time. I'm getting ready to sell my 335is (it's been my dd for the past 1.5 years). I need something more practical for winter driving up here in upstate NY.

So my decision to sell the 335is will be two-fold: get a suitable 4wd winter car; and get a nice track day car.

I've looked around for something that is affordable and still offers good performance. The Z4m Coupe and e46 M3 have stuck out in that regard. I'm familiar with the layout, specs for both, but I had some specific questions on the Z4m's capabilities:

1) I've heard of oversteer being more prevalent in the Z4m than in the e46. IS this true? If so why and how do people here deal with it?

2) I know the Z4m uses many of the same engine parts as the e46, but also has different exhaust and suspension and chassis parts. Will costs for maintenance and potential upgrades be the same between the 2?

3) Which one (between e46 and Z4m) handles better on the track. I've heard that the Z4m is stiffer, does that it make it better for track performance?

4) Is the stock Hp/ torque sufficient for track use? 330 HP is not a lot nowadays. My 335is only has 320 HP, but it also has 332lb-ft and 370lb-ft overboost, which more than made up for the lack of peak HP.

5) Any common maintenance issues that I should be aware of as I look to purchase a z4m?

I've read through these forums a bit, so i have some understanding of this car. I just wanted to hear any direct feedback from people who track this thing.
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      12-03-2014, 06:45 PM   #2
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1) Yes. It's because it's a shorter moment of inertia to overcome. Wheelbase on the MZ4 is significantly shorter than the E46 (and by that extension, even more so compared to the E9x) How do I deal with it?

Learn to anticipate the rear end coming around. Assume that it's going to rotate at every slow corner and whenever you drop the hammer. Correct the rotation before it happens.

2) Maintenance, yes. It uses mostly the same parts that an E46 M3 would use, for brakes, tires, oil and whatnot. Potential for upgrade? All but the lowest ends (like Megan and off-brand Taiwanese stuff) on the suspension side, and anything involving engine tune (FI, tunes, etc) are not available to the MZ4, at least not to the same extent as it was on the E46 M3. The S54 on the MZ4 uses a newer, more power ECU (similar to the E9x M3), therefore any tune designed for the S54 on the E46 won't work, and by that extension, any FI application designed for the S54 won't work without custom tune.

3) Stock for stock, or same equipment, MZ4. By a WIDE margin.

4) My philosophy is, if you can't go fast with 300 HP, having more won't help you. Heck if you can't go fast with 200 HP, having 300 HP won't help you. Keep in mind the MZ4 Coupe is around 250lbs lighter. For acceleration purposes, it's roughly the equivalent of 25 more HP than the E46 M3.

The problem, of course, is if you're even 1/10th of a second slower in applying your throttle upon the exit of a turn, that extra "25 HP" or 250lbs less won't help you much.

Where the HP and torque helps you the most, is in passing IMO.

I once got stuck behind Satch Carlson of Roundel at a local track day, he in his wife's Dinan 335i, I in my MZ4 Coupe. He would give me a point-by, then FLOOR the car on the straights. I went through half a dozen lap trying to pass him without breaking the rules of the organization we're with to no avail (BMW CCA. Passing with a point only is strictly enforced, and we're forbidden from passing into the braking zone).

Let's just say that was the ONLY time I ever wished I had more HP.

5) I'm just going to come out and say it. If your goal is to sell the 335is and buy 2 cars, you won't be able to afford a decent MZ4 Coupe. They EASILY command $8,000-12,000 more for equivalent mileage/quality E46 M3s. You probably will barely be able to do a straight-up swap with the 335is, much less buy an MZ4 Coupe AND an AWD/4WD beater.

If I were in your shoes? I'd get an '09+ WRX and put the rest into suspension and and extra set of wheels/tires or two. I had an '09 Wagon and with a set of Hoosier R6es, it could chase down J-Prepared E36s on track. Hoosiers AND suspension? It'll probably be faster than I-Prepared cars. You can track the WRX to your hearts content, and it'll be very comfortable for daily drive, especially in the winter.
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      12-03-2014, 06:51 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Hello all.

I've been a 2013 335is owner and active member of the e90 forum for some time. I'm getting ready to sell my 335is (it's been my dd for the past 1.5 years). I need something more practical for winter driving up here in upstate NY.

So my decision to sell the 335is will be two-fold: get a suitable 4wd winter car; and get a nice track day car.

I've looked around for something that is affordable and still offers good performance. The Z4m Coupe and e46 M3 have stuck out in that regard. I'm familiar with the layout, specs for both, but I had some specific questions on the Z4m's capabilities:

1) I've heard of oversteer being more prevalent in the Z4m than in the e46. IS this true? If so why and how do people here deal with it?

2) I know the Z4m uses many of the same engine parts as the e46, but also has different exhaust and suspension and chassis parts. Will costs for maintenance and potential upgrades be the same between the 2?

3) Which one (between e46 and Z4m) handles better on the track. I've heard that the Z4m is stiffer, does that it make it better for track performance?

4) Is the stock Hp/ torque sufficient for track use? 330 HP is not a lot nowadays. My 335is only has 320 HP, but it also has 332lb-ft and 370lb-ft overboost, which more than made up for the lack of peak HP.

5) Any common maintenance issues that I should be aware of as I look to purchase a z4m?

I've read through these forums a bit, so i have some understanding of this car. I just wanted to hear any direct feedback from people who track this thing.

As you have gathered, many people have tracked their Z4s, myself included with few regrets.

That being said, they are different animals.

Stock, the Z4M does like snap oversteer if not handled appropriately. This is primarily due the short wheelbase, and stock suspension settings. The E46 is a more neutral car.

Suspension settings, if not new suspension +/- wheels/tires will correct most of the issues. Getting the back end to come around a bit with lift throttle oversteer or power oversteer can easily be used as an advantage in slow corners if you are comfortable with the car and expect it.

As far as the cost of upgrades go, the Z4 will be on par, if not a tad more expensive to upgrade owing the fewer options. (lower production numbers)
That being said, there are a good number of options for the Z4, regardless of which route you choose to proceed.

With regard to the HP, it depends on what you are planning to do, HPDE, time trials, hillclimb, autocross etc...

Its not all about horsepower, a good driver will be able to extract a lot out of the car in stock form. Throw some decent tires, track pads, and the car comes alive.

Personally, I've probably done too much to my car, but I have no problem keeping up to and dispatching 991 Carrera S on R comps, C5 ZO6 R-comps,
even a V8 Audi R8 driven by an instructor, this is while keeping the car N/A.

As far as maintenance goes, its pretty similar with the two having issues with rod bearings and VANOS bolts on the S54. After those are taken care of, I am not aware of too many issues. (fingers crossed)

With similar mods, the same driver may be able to turn slightly quicker lap times with the E46. That being said, I wouldn't trade my car for most anything. Its relative rarity, the way it sits, the way that you feel when driving it cannot be beat. Its early December, and I already can't wait to hit the tarmac early spring!

honestly, you wont go wrong with either....

That being said, there have been more than a few Z4M forum folks that ended up trading up to a different BMW model only to sell it, and get back into the Z4!

I hope that helps
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      12-03-2014, 06:53 PM   #4
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Damn Hack, you're too fast with the reply
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      12-04-2014, 12:44 AM   #5
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I hit reply like how I drive. FAST.
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      12-04-2014, 09:34 AM   #6
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Hey all. Thanks for the replies.

I misstated one of my questions. I meant to ask if the Z4M coupe had understeer problems, not oversteer. But it sounds like from what everyone has been saying, the Z4M does slightly understeer which can then lead to snap oversteer.


In terms of my car selling plans:
-I realize the Z4M will command more of $ than the e46 m3, despite having the same engines.

-From what I have read here on the forum and on this thread, it seems that the Z4M does in fact offer better performance than the e46 m3, but you really only see that performance gap when driving at 9/10 or beyond.

I think what makes the most sense for me is to buy an e46 m3 rather the z4m because it offers:
-more neutral handling
-cheaper buying price
-easier to modify (seats, roll cage) for track duty
-easier to find due to greater production numbers


The other real reason I made this post is because I am very interested in buying and modifying a s54-based platform (e46 or Z4M) for track duty. However there doesn't seem to be an e46 forum on here. Does anyone know where I can go to talk to owners and track vets on this car?

Thanks again for the help. I'll be deciding soon how I proceed on this and regardless of which way I go, I'll probably be on here from time to time to ask engine questions.
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      12-04-2014, 12:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post

The other real reason I made this post is because I am very interested in buying and modifying a s54-based platform (e46 or Z4M) for track duty. However there doesn't seem to be an e46 forum on here. Does anyone know where I can go to talk to owners and track vets on this car?

Thanks again for the help. I'll be deciding soon how I proceed on this and regardless of which way I go, I'll probably be on here from time to time to ask engine questions.
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      12-04-2014, 02:35 PM   #8
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The way to solve "understeer" on the MZ4 Coupe is the same as the way to solve understeer on the E46 M3. With more grip up front.

By the way, neither chassis is considered "neutral" straight from the factory. As for the MZ4 Coupe understeering more than the E46 M3, it's a sheer function of the shorter and stiffer chassis. It responds to the extremes of inputs quicker. So if you're used to mashing the binder half way past your braking zone (like how typical journalists drive) and asking the car to turn at the same time? Just like how it oversteers quicker than an E46 M3, it goes past 10 much quicker than the E46 M3 thus overwhelming the front end quicker.

Drive it right, and the MZ4 Coupe is FAR more rewarding to the driver than ANY BMW chassis that came before and after it, IMO. This car absolutely shines in the right hands.

But if I were in your shoes? E46 M3, no question. You can get an '06 E46 M3 with reasonable miles for about $10,000 less than what you'll have to pay for the average '06 MZ4 Coupe. That $10,000 means a set of R-Comps, a set of light weight wheels, and a set of JRZ or MCS coil-overs set-up to your hearts content.

Better bang for the bucks, IMO.
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      12-04-2014, 02:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 tii View Post
Much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
The way to solve "understeer" on the MZ4 Coupe is the same as the way to solve understeer on the E46 M3. With more grip up front.

By the way, neither chassis is considered "neutral" straight from the factory. As for the MZ4 Coupe understeering more than the E46 M3, it's a sheer function of the shorter and stiffer chassis. It responds to the extremes of inputs quicker. So if you're used to mashing the binder half way past your braking zone (like how typical journalists drive) and asking the car to turn at the same time? Just like how it oversteers quicker than an E46 M3, it goes past 10 much quicker than the E46 M3 thus overwhelming the front end quicker.

Drive it right, and the MZ4 Coupe is FAR more rewarding to the driver than ANY BMW chassis that came before and after it, IMO. This car absolutely shines in the right hands.

But if I were in your shoes? E46 M3, no question. You can get an '06 E46 M3 with reasonable miles for about $10,000 less than what you'll have to pay for the average '06 MZ4 Coupe. That $10,000 means a set of R-Comps, a set of light weight wheels, and a set of JRZ or MCS coil-overs set-up to your hearts content.

Better bang for the bucks, IMO.
Yeah, I've heard a lot about how the Z4M is very rewarding car to drive, especially when you have got some seat time under your belt. And I certainly like the idea of a small, stiff-chassis, coupe with the s54 engine under the hood.

But you hit the nail right on the head. I am new to modifying and tracking cars and am working on a limited budget. So the e46 m3 seems like the logical choice.

It's really a shame that there is no e46 section to this forum. All the e46 and Z4m drivers seem like the ones who are really into tracking their cars...a lot of owners of the e9x and f8x m3's seem more interested in taking pictures of their cars rather than tracking and won't give you the time of day if you don't own the most recent model. I know I'm generalizing somewhat with that remark, but hopefully you catch my meaning..

I like the DIY and track mentality of this Z4m forum much better so I'll probably stay in touch even if I end up getting a e46 m3. Thanks again for the help!
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      12-04-2014, 05:47 PM   #10
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for a track car, I'd go with the much cheaper e46m3, especially since its much easier to get it below 2700lbs

on a z4m, add in some negative camber, 275mm tires up front, and the understeer issues dissapear unless you plow into the corner like an idiot
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      12-04-2014, 06:20 PM   #11
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Just to add a few quick points:

2) There are many more E46M out there than Z4Ms. Because of that, the aftermarket developed many more parts for the E46m than the Z4M. Not only are there more parts available for the E46M, but this translates to a greater abundance of used parts (compare the parts section of ZPost Vs M3Forum and you'll see what I mean). More used parts = more options to choose from and lower price for pre-owned parts. Not sure if you're one to go for pre-owned parts but it's perhaps something to consider.

5) For either platform, be sure to research the VANOS and rod bearing issues before purchasing, especially as this is planned to be used as a track car. And I'm sure you're aware of it, but also consider the infamous subframe reinforcement & bushings on the E46M.
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      04-27-2015, 11:19 PM   #12
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I own one of each and I chose the M3 as my track car and Z4M as my dd.

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