Z4MC vs Z3MC

[o2wji]

Hi all. New to this forum.

I have been a long time owner of a Z3mc with a S52 motor. I have plans to upgrade to a S54 Z3MC this summer, but now with the recent prices of the Z4MC coming very close to the S54 Z3MC prices, my plans may be changing.

This being a Z4 forum, tell me why I should consider the Z4 version over the Z3 version and vice versa. Has this comparison been done before? Are there any articles/reviews available?

Thanks.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by o2wji

Hi all. New to this forum.

I have been a long time owner of a Z3mc with a S52 motor. I have plans to upgrade to a S54 Z3MC this summer, but now with the recent prices of the Z4MC coming very close to the S54 Z3MC prices, my plans may be changing.

This being a Z4 forum, tell me why I should consider the Z4 version over the Z3 version and vice versa. Has this comparison been done before? Are there any articles/reviews available?

Thanks.

Mz4's have alot less problems then mz3's. The only really common problems with the mz4 is the motor mount bolts tend to come loose.

mz3's have bad subframes, rod bearing issues, as well as a myriad of other problems. The s54 in the mz3 came in when the motor was brand new and still having some teething issues, the mz4 got the s54 near the end of its life when enough improvements had been done to make it pretty much bulletproof.

The s54 mz3 doesn't make the power the mz4 makes either, mz4 typically makes 15-20 more HP, in addition to revving to 8000rpm instead of 7600 like the s54 mz3 is limited too.

Rear suspension is completely different, the mz4 uses a multi link setup like an e36 or e46 whereas the mz3 uses an semi trailing arm like an e30. The multi link setup is faster around a track and more stable, although the semi trailing arms tend to be more fun and oversteery.

The mz4 is also much newer and since most are 07's, then you still get about a year of factory warranty and possibly 2 years of CPO warranty.

The one thing about the mz3 coupe is that it has more usable space then the mz4 coupe, and the visibility is much better. The gearbox in the mz3 despite only being a 5 speed instead of the 6 speed in the mz4 is probably more durable and able to take abusive shifts compared the fairly weak mz4 box.

Overall you can't go wrong with either car, my brother owns an s52 mz3 and ill be picking up my mz4 this week.

[Z3Z4MC]

I have been a hardcore Z3MC fan for a long time. When the Z4MC was first introduced, I wasn't much of a fan of the new styling. However, after seeing a few Z4MC in person, I fell in love. I have since sold the Z3MC and pickup a Z4MC.

The Z4MC is much more refine, much better handling, definitely faster than the S52 Z3MC, and feel more like a sport car. I had coilovers and performance tires in my Z3MC, and my current stock Z4MC still handles much better. And this is with the original run-flat. Also, after awhile looking at the interior of the Z3MC, comparing it to modern cars, I realized how dated it was. The Z4MC interior and cockpit feel like a real sport car, plus all the bonus of new technology gadgets...GPS, bluetooth, etc.

Once you can convince yourself on the styling of the Z4MC over the Z3MC, a simple test drive is all you need.

[inTgr8r]

^minor note.
Z4MC didn't come stock with run flats.
That's why the inflation kit is in the boot.

[nickpapa]

id probably go for the Z4MC if i were in your position because of the same reasons mentioned above.

although i do think the Z3MC wins hands down in looks over the Z4MC.

[Crimson92]

Originally Posted by nickpapa

id probably go for the Z4MC if i were in your position because of the same reasons mentioned above.

although i do think the Z3MC wins hands down in looks over the Z4MC.

i respectfully disagree.

although the z3c is a good looking car, it is too different/extreme for some.

i have a z4mc so my opinion may be biased...but the looks on this car flow much better than the z3.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by nickpapa

id probably go for the Z4MC if i were in your position because of the same reasons mentioned above.

although i do think the Z3MC wins hands down in looks over the Z4MC.

agreed... no car will very been as ujniquely styled as the mz3c, the mz4 is a great looking car but it doesn't have the flamboyance of the mz3.

That said engineering wise the mz4 wins hands down.

[Hawkeye]

I like the Z4MC styling much better... the Z3MC was the car that got me interested in this series of cars back when I was a kid though. I was all googly eyed over one at the baseball park with my dad and just liked them ever since!

[AWM3]

Originally Posted by o2wji

Hi all. New to this forum.

I have been a long time owner of a Z3mc with a S52 motor. I have plans to upgrade to a S54 Z3MC this summer, but now with the recent prices of the Z4MC coming very close to the S54 Z3MC prices, my plans may be changing.

This being a Z4 forum, tell me why I should consider the Z4 version over the Z3 version and vice versa. Has this comparison been done before? Are there any articles/reviews available?

Thanks.

Three reasons:
Rod bearing failures
Rear subframe failures
Antiquated rear suspension design which literally dates back to the 1960's.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by car62

Three reasons:
Rod bearing failures
Rear subframe failures
Antiquated rear suspension design which literally dates back to the 1960's.

The MZ3 with S54 does not seem to exhibit the same rod bearing failures the E46 M3s does, maybe it's the slightly reduced terminal RPM. But there's only maybe one or two cases of the MZ3 w/ S54 that I am aware of that suffered a spun bearing. While that IS a freakishly high failure rate (for 1.5 year's production in MAYBE about a thousand examples), I wouldn't call it "prone" to spun bearings just yet. Who knows if the MZ4 S54 may or may not suffer the same problem(s).

Also, with regards to the rear subframe, don't forget the MZ4 also shares the same subframe design with the E46. So keep in mind the E46 also has rear subframe failures (in fact BMW settled a class action lawsuit over it) which means the MZ4 may or may not suffer the same issue. We simply don't know at this point since the Z4s are still relatively new. Rear subframe failures usually shows up with higher mileage cars.

Lastly, anyone calling the rear trailing arm an antiquated design, probably should ditch the front McPherson strut as well, which dates back to the 1920s and practically remains UNCHANGED as implemented by BMW. While new "multi-link" geometries are beneficial in that they do exhibit better camber curve as the suspension compresses, the multi-link design suffers from added components and added weight and complexity. Also, keep in mind that the MOST successful touring car EVER used this same trailing arm design.

This discussion on which is better really is a moot point. The two chassis isn't really THAT different except stylistically. Mechanically the multilink rear makes the MZ4 more "refined" to drive but the trailing arm MZ3 makes it more "fun" to drive. The REAL mechanical advantage the MZ4 has, is the 6 speed for highway use and the tricky, variable M diff vs the 25% locking rear diff on the MZ3. Those mechanical differences are small in the grand scheme of things. Personally, if I'm in the market, I'd buy the MZ4 Coupe for style and S54 MZ3 Coupe for collectibility. Or if I'm ballah I'd buy both and keep both.

I could have swore I posted everything I wrote above on a link to another forum in this thread before?

[Huz-Z]

Although I drive a Z4 roadster, I have to say that I strongly prefer the styling of the Z4 coupe (M or non M) over that of the Z3.

I won't dump on the Z3 coupe in respect of the folks who own those cars, but I think the Z4 coupe has beautifully flowing, curved and graceful lines which are reminiscent of classic sports cars like the famous Aston Martin DB5.

Its just gorgeous and you don't have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get that classic styling - with modern day reliability and awesome performance to boot, Z4 Coupe or Z4M coupe!

[AWM3]

Originally Posted by The HACK

The MZ3 with S54 does not seem to exhibit the same rod bearing failures the E46 M3s does, maybe it's the slightly reduced terminal RPM. But there's only maybe one or two cases of the MZ3 w/ S54 that I am aware of that suffered a spun bearing. While that IS a freakishly high failure rate (for 1.5 year's production in MAYBE about a thousand examples), I wouldn't call it "prone" to spun bearings just yet. Who knows if the MZ4 S54 may or may not suffer the same problem(s).

Also, with regards to the rear subframe, don't forget the MZ4 also shares the same subframe design with the E46. So keep in mind the E46 also has rear subframe failures (in fact BMW settled a class action lawsuit over it) which means the MZ4 may or may not suffer the same issue. We simply don't know at this point since the Z4s are still relatively new. Rear subframe failures usually shows up with higher mileage cars.

Lastly, anyone calling the rear trailing arm an antiquated design, probably should ditch the front McPherson strut as well, which dates back to the 1920s and practically remains UNCHANGED as implemented by BMW. While new "multi-link" geometries are beneficial in that they do exhibit better camber curve as the suspension compresses, the multi-link design suffers from added components and added weight and complexity. Also, keep in mind that the MOST successful touring car EVER used this same trailing arm design.

This discussion on which is better really is a moot point. The two chassis isn't really THAT different except stylistically. Mechanically the multilink rear makes the MZ4 more "refined" to drive but the trailing arm MZ3 makes it more "fun" to drive. The REAL mechanical advantage the MZ4 has, is the 6 speed for highway use and the tricky, variable M diff vs the 25% locking rear diff on the MZ3. Those mechanical differences are small in the grand scheme of things. Personally, if I'm in the market, I'd buy the MZ4 Coupe for style and S54 MZ3 Coupe for collectibility. Or if I'm ballah I'd buy both and keep both.

I could have swore I posted everything I wrote above on a link to another forum in this thread before?

Do you always have to contradict everything?
Point is, the Z3M has the earlier engine which is more prone to rod bearing problems than the later engine. The rear trailing arm IS an antiquated design and detracts from the high speed handling of the car. You can't compare road cars with soft suspension and lots of wheel travel to race cars that are two inches off the ground and have minimal suspension travel. Finally, the subframe failures on the Z3 are notoriously well known to the point that there are correction kits available on the aftermarket to try to strengthen the rear chassis. So there.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by car62

Do you always have to contradict everything?
Point is, the Z3M has the earlier engine which is more prone to rod bearing problems than the later engine. The rear trailing arm IS an antiquated design and detracts from the high speed handling of the car. You can't compare road cars with soft suspension and lots of wheel travel to race cars that are two inches off the ground and have minimal suspension travel. Finally, the subframe failures on the Z3 are notoriously well known to the point that there are correction kits available on the aftermarket to try to strengthen the rear chassis. So there.

No, I only contradict information that are presented as fact while there's usually another side to the story.

First, most of these subframe issues only start surfacing AFTER the Z3 has ceased production. And the fact still remains, the Z4 shares subframe design with the E46 and the E46 is now starting to show the same subframe issues that the E36 and Z3s suffered. So you can not entirely rule out the possibility that the Z4 may potentially suffer from the same problem. To make a blanket statement that the Z4 is better than the Z3 because of the subframe problem is PREMATURE at best.

And I used the rear trailing arm/MacPherson strut as an example. Just because a technology is old does not immediately made it poor. BMW has taken the MacStrut design and made it one of the best handling, best steering sedans ever. There's no disputing that. And if anyone were to tell me that my 350Z, which has double A arms upfront, a newer and supposedly far superior suspension design, than the MZ4 Coupe, steers and handles better than the MZ4 Coupe, I'd have a bone to pick with that as well. Heck the C6 Corvette, including the Z06 variants, still rides on LEAF SPRINGS. Anyone tell you that the Z06's antiquated rear suspension design should make it inferior should probably have their sanity checked. Now, there are certain advantages to the simple rear trailing arm design. If you'll notice, the S54 MZ3 Coupe is about 100 lbs lighter than the MZ4 Coupe. While structural rigidity has something to do with it (Z3 Coupe is 19,000Nm/degree of deflection, the Z4 Coupe is 32,000Nm/degree of deflection), the rear suspension being a simple rear trailing arm means the rear suspension on a Z3 is potentially 10-20 lbs LIGHTER and some of that is part of the unsprung mass.

And while I will concede that the fact that BMW refused to retrofit S54 MZ3s with the "fix" does not mean said problem will not plague MZ3 S54s, I still contend that there simply isn't enough spun'ed S54 MZ3s to indicate that particular S54 is more problematic. At least we haven't heard of any S54 MZ3s having engine mount troubles yet.

Look, I am all for wearing rose colored glasses when we each look at this whole discussion. I for one LOVE my MZ4 Coupe. I wouldn't trade it in for an MZ3 Coupe that is for certain. There are certain things the MZ4 Coupe does well compared to the MZ3 Coupe. It does HANDLE marginally better despite the additional heft (if that can even be used to describe a 3,200 lbs car anymore, when the typical 3 series weighs 3,550 lbs). However, when we start to put down the other car just to make our own look better? Not sure if I agree with that.

[AWM3]

Originally Posted by o2wji

Hi all. New to this forum.

I have been a long time owner of a Z3mc with a S52 motor. I have plans to upgrade to a S54 Z3MC this summer, but now with the recent prices of the Z4MC coming very close to the S54 Z3MC prices, my plans may be changing.

This being a Z4 forum, tell me why I should consider the Z4 version over the Z3 version and vice versa. Has this comparison been done before? Are there any articles/reviews available?

Thanks.

Maybe you should just keep your S52 Z3MC and upgrade it. They were great cars. You can do some cool stuff like:

Interior



More horsepower



Suspension, wheels, and tires



and then take it to a track and have some fun!

[Serious]

Originally Posted by The HACK

No, I only contradict information that are presented as fact while there's usually another side to the story.

First, most of these subframe issues only start surfacing AFTER the Z3 has ceased production. And the fact still remains, the Z4 shares subframe design with the E46 and the E46 is now starting to show the same subframe issues that the E36 and Z3s suffered. So you can not entirely rule out the possibility that the Z4 may potentially suffer from the same problem. To make a blanket statement that the Z4 is better than the Z3 because of the subframe problem is PREMATURE at best.

And I used the rear trailing arm/MacPherson strut as an example. Just because a technology is old does not immediately made it poor. BMW has taken the MacStrut design and made it one of the best handling, best steering sedans ever. There's no disputing that. And if anyone were to tell me that my 350Z, which has double A arms upfront, a newer and supposedly far superior suspension design, than the MZ4 Coupe, steers and handles better than the MZ4 Coupe, I'd have a bone to pick with that as well. Heck the C6 Corvette, including the Z06 variants, still rides on LEAF SPRINGS. Anyone tell you that the Z06's antiquated rear suspension design should make it inferior should probably have their sanity checked. Now, there are certain advantages to the simple rear trailing arm design. If you'll notice, the S54 MZ3 Coupe is about 100 lbs lighter than the MZ4 Coupe. While structural rigidity has something to do with it (Z3 Coupe is 19,000Nm/degree of deflection, the Z4 Coupe is 32,000Nm/degree of deflection), the rear suspension being a simple rear trailing arm means the rear suspension on a Z3 is potentially 10-20 lbs LIGHTER and some of that is part of the unsprung mass.

And while I will concede that the fact that BMW refused to retrofit S54 MZ3s with the "fix" does not mean said problem will not plague MZ3 S54s, I still contend that there simply isn't enough spun'ed S54 MZ3s to indicate that particular S54 is more problematic. At least we haven't heard of any S54 MZ3s having engine mount troubles yet.

Look, I am all for wearing rose colored glasses when we each look at this whole discussion. I for one LOVE my MZ4 Coupe. I wouldn't trade it in for an MZ3 Coupe that is for certain. There are certain things the MZ4 Coupe does well compared to the MZ3 Coupe. It does HANDLE marginally better despite the additional heft (if that can even be used to describe a 3,200 lbs car anymore, when the typical 3 series weighs 3,550 lbs). However, when we start to put down the other car just to make our own look better? Not sure if I agree with that.

I agree with most of what you're saying but the mz3 does have a known track record for subframe failures (different failures then the e46 or e36, specifically because of the single ear diff mount used in mz3, vs. dual mount in e36/e46). I've talked to alot of body shops and bmw dealerships and the consenus is that while it happens to m3's, most of which are tracked or on aftermarket suspension, the most common subframe failures are on the early (99-00) non- M e46 chassis.

Driving my brother's mz3 coupe, the rear suspension gives a completely different feel and driving style to the car then the e36/e46/mz4.

All early s54's tend to have more problems then the later years, even in e46 m3's... given the 01-02 are the only available years for s54 mz3, you don't get to take advantage of all the upgrades bmw made throughout the life of the engine. (ie better coils, rod bearings, cam gear bolts etc.)

Not trying to dog the mz3 but given that the s54's are pretty close in price to the mz4, you have to really want the mz3 to buy it over the mz4, which is a better engineered car.

[99C2]

3 or 4:

Both great cars! Flip a coin...

99C2

[Blind32]

Read this thread, and threads like these, then go test drive both if possible. Good luck! I've only driven a Z4M and all I can say is

[o2wji]

Thanks everyone for their input. From what I gather, the mz4 is basically a more refined version of the mz3. The mz4 also appears to offer more car for the money.

I will go take a look a few mz4c's this weekend. An issue with the motor mounts was brought up; how do I know when they are bad? What other issues do I need to be aware of when looking at the mz4.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by o2wji

Thanks everyone for their input. From what I gather, the mz4 is basically a more refined version of the mz3. The mz4 also appears to offer more car for the money.

I will go take a look a few mz4c's this weekend. An issue with the motor mounts was brought up; how do I know when they are bad? What other issues do I need to be aware of when looking at the mz4.

Motor mounts don't go bad, they just need the bolts replaced. you will know due to a vibration at certain rpms.

[Rick Hunter]

I fell in love with the Z3C back in the day, and I would have sprung for one new (if I had the $$).

I'm glad I was able to chase the Z dream years later... although it wasn't the one that piqued my interest in the brand.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Rick Hunter

I fell in love with the Z3C back in the day, and I would have sprung for one new (if I had the $$).

I'm glad I was able to chase the Z dream years later... although it wasn't the one that piqued my interest in the brand.

Interesting Rick. Same story with Skelekitty....and years later you both were able to realize your Z dreams.

I was always more about the M3, even back in the E30, but couldn't pursue it (lack of $$$).

It's funny how one car in particular sort of sets your mind on a brand. Of course, as my driving tastes/needs have evolved the M3 has faded into the Z4M being the car of choice.