Purchased Recaro SPG w/Stripped/Damaged Mounting Inserts

tiltmode43 · 12-31-2015, 01:51 AM

Purchased from this ad: http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1208534

Hi All,

I just picked up a pair of Recaro SPG from another forum member last night. His ad listed the seats as being in great condition and the price was fair. I met up and checked out the seats for authenticity. They seemed legit based on some internet research, the condition was okay despite some cosmetic blems, and he was a nice guy. Excited me handed over the cash, loaded them up, and took off. Recaro time!!!

Or at least, I thought. I got home, unloaded the seats, and did another look over. This is when I discovered the threaded inserts were all damaged to different degrees.

So my question is, does anyone have experience with this or ideas for a solution? I'm not sure if it would be best to try helicoil repair or something like a rivet nut, or if either of these would be considered safe. Anyone have any tips? Prev owner said they would be fine, just install as-is, but I'm not personally comfortable with the lack of thread engagement and I'd rather get this repaired prior to installing (local shop agreed). I try not to screw too much with safety equipment but I'm hoping there is a proper fix for this as this was unexpected and the seller isn't willing to help out. Who knows, he may not have been aware or really didn't think it a big deal, I try to give benefit of the doubt in these situations. Right now, my goal is getting these beauties properly installed in my car.

At the end of the day I paid cash and picked up without properly inspecting the item, definitely learned my lesson on purchasing used racing seats

Any/All input is appreciated!

Seat #1
Threaded insert 1:
[img][/img]
Threaded insert 2:
[img][/img]
Threaded insert 3:
[img][/img]
Threaded insert 4:
[img][/img]

Seat #2
Threaded insert 1:
[img][/img]
Threaded insert 2:
[img][/img]
Threaded insert 3:
[img][/img]
Threaded insert 4:
[img][/img]

Beedub · 12-31-2015, 03:43 AM

wtf...... not good, we've all done this purchases excited and not checked things over BUT, I'm sorry id be contacting the seller and asking for some money back. This is not acceptable.

Steeler · 12-31-2015, 07:49 AM

Quite possible the PO did not know the threads were stripped. In any case a call to him to see what he can do for you is not unwarranted.

As far as fixing, I would try oversize drilling and tapping. Even if it means opening up the holes in the mounting base.

itdnwiwbp · 12-31-2015, 09:32 AM

I had concerns considering they were out of a wrecked car (although maybe this isn't even a result of that) but that was mentioned in the ad and the other member seems like a pretty honest guy to me too. I hope you (or you two) can get it worked out so everyone's happy.

tiltmode43 · 12-31-2015, 05:08 PM

Originally I wanted this thread to be purely about fixing the seats but since people have commented on the transaction, I'll add some detail there, too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beedub

wtf...... not good, we've all done this purchases excited and not checked things over BUT, I'm sorry id be contacting the seller and asking for some money back. This is not acceptable.

I certainly did contact seller, both yesterday and today. At this point I think I'm out of luck but again, I really should have inspected the seats closer. I take some blame here. They weren't as described but I overlooked something important in a cash transaction. I'll include some of his messages below so you can get an idea of how it went.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbarton62

Quite possible the PO did not know the threads were stripped. In any case a call to him to see what he can do for you is not unwarranted.

As far as fixing, I would try oversize drilling and tapping. Even if it means opening up the holes in the mounting base.

Ripping out the threads during un-installing is something that whoever did the work, should have noticed. Someone else mentioned they may have used thread locker and not taken it out properly, which I tend to agree seems plausible. I still try to give benefit of doubt to him but he’s stopped responding to me so who knows.

I'm hoping helicoil or rivet nut will do the trick. I don’t think threading directly into fiberglass would hold, Recaro uses massive flanges on the inside to help distribute the load. Absolute worst case scenario would be to take all fabric off, replace all the inserts, and have the seats custom upholstered to my liking. So at least I've got a silver lining to this, it may result in some diamond stitched recaros.

Here are details of the transaction, after finding the inserts were stripped:

I notified PO of the damage, sent photos.

"Once you mount them in place, they tighten up like welds. I haven't had a single issue"

I let PO know I was having a shop check them out and that they'll be used for track duty.

"Trust me when I say you'll be fine on the track, I'm a master EPA, ford and BMW technician. Let nothing fear you bro."

I notified him the shop confirmed they shouldn't be used as-is. At this point, I offered that if he would take them back I would take a partial refund for the hassle. That’s free money to him! This way, he could make a quick $1-200 just because of my lack of inspection. I was hoping we could do this so I could get them out of my hair and chalk up the loss to over-eagerness in purchasing.

"I can't do a refund, I've rejected so many people on the forum told them it's sold and they went a different route. Yea I'd love to help out but you gotta understand me too, just cause 1 shop said it doesn't give me the ticket to return bro. I'm 100% confident in tickets seats but I can't do a refund or whatever it is."

I told him today a large Recaro distributor confirmed the seats not ok as-is. I told him bottom line, he sold me bad seats, and asked if there was anything he could do to make this right. I told him a partial refund seemed fair and any other buyer would be asking the same.

At this point I've gotten no response and he blocked me on instagram. That may seem silly but it tells me he's looked at his phone, decided not to return the text, and went through the effort to remove me from social media.

In the end I’m treating this as a reminder for private transactions and hope someone reading this will think twice/learn from my experience as well. I have bought and sold hundreds of car parts online via forums and craigslist and this is literally the first negative experience I’ve had, and it’s my fault. At the end of the day it's just car parts, there are far worse things going on in the world these days than to worry too much about something like this.

NickyC · 12-31-2015, 07:31 PM

Sorry to hear about your issues Tiltmode, I had somebody HOSE me this summer on a front BBK for my car. Luckily the parts were still worth something however, and I was able to sell them on (with a full disclosure of course) for about $400 less than I paid. Lousy situation as I hate being treated that way so I now how you feel.

I know who sold you those seats as I've seen the FS thread. Be sure to leave a negative feedback in the iTrader rating so that others may be alerted to this seller in the future. I'd give him -2 if possible just for calling you "bro" all the time.

Best of luck, sorry for the issues once again.

itdnwiwbp · 12-31-2015, 10:39 PM

Sorry to hear this has turned out this way. I feel your pain. I purchased a steering wheel for my wife's car last year that was NOWHERE near the condition that was described and also a cheap commuter car recently. The seller of the car blatantly lied about pretty much everything. Just as you have, I had to chalk it up to experience. I'm a very honest person and treat everyone exactly how I would like to be treated. Unfortunately this seems to be a rarity.

Beedub · 01-01-2016, 01:02 PM

disgraceful treatment and ill be avoiding that seller.

tiltmode43 · 01-02-2016, 11:01 PM

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!

For what it's worth, I took the upholstery off one of the seats and am fairly confident I can make something work that is 100% safe and effective, although the entire thing is still truly a hassle.

By the way Beedub, let me know if you still want some of those beefed up vibration isolators for the DKF hangers.

Twixboy · 01-03-2016, 09:54 AM

Isn't the seller local? I'm surprised he isn't taking the seats back as a return. You know where he lives! I got some parts recently from another member that weren't as described and he was willing to refund me all my money AND let me keep the parts. Anyway, I would bring the seats to a body shop to tap new threads. I had this done at the dealer with something else and it was expensive ($150/hr labor x 4 taps @ 30 min each), but necessary. I think a body shop or mechanic might be able to do it cheaper, maybe $80/hr, and maybe won't charge as many hours either since 2 hrs to do 4 taps seemed excessive to me.

Beedub · 01-03-2016, 11:04 AM

tiltmode i completely forgot about those!! ill drop you a pm once I'm back at work, I'm currently knee deep i children !!!

tiltmode43 · 01-03-2016, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twixboy

Isn't the seller local? I'm surprised he isn't taking the seats back as a return. You know where he lives! I got some parts recently from another member that weren't as described and he was willing to refund me all my money AND let me keep the parts. Anyway, I would bring the seats to a body shop to tap new threads. I had this done at the dealer with something else and it was expensive ($150/hr labor x 4 taps @ 30 min each), but necessary. I think a body shop or mechanic might be able to do it cheaper, maybe $80/hr, and maybe won't charge as many hours either since 2 hrs to do 4 taps seemed excessive to me.

And that is a good seller! With this guy, I offered to take a partial refund the next day, it was basically like offering to give him cash because I didn't inspect the items closely. Still, no dice, and I'e accepted the seats are mine.

They are local but I didn't meet at their house. I can probably figure out where he lives but he's made it clear he doesn't want to deal with me. Bottom line, it was a cash transaction so I'm kind of out of luck.

I appreciate the feedback, I'm sure I'll have these properly fixed and installed soon

Vanne · 01-04-2016, 12:10 PM

Hi Matt,

Mate so very sad to hear the seats were not as described, I was also very keen on them, maybe lucky I have a fat butt. I gotta admit I was surprised reading the log about the sale, ive bought from the same guy before and he was a standup guy. Not sure how he could have missed that the nuts were stripped.. id agree mate, esp fir something that MUST be safe, I would have also asked for a refund, I def would not put them in my car the way they are atm.

I am also very suprised the guy has cold shouldered you man, thats not cool.

Hope you get something sorted with the chairs and with the seller Matt, keep us updated.

Westersund · 01-04-2016, 02:11 PM

What about drilling out the old inserts and glue new ones in? In case of a crash on track it's your seat belt that absorbs most of the energy anyway, not the seat or it's inserts. Making the best out of a bad hand.

WickedNy · 01-05-2016, 03:56 AM

I think a heli coil would be your best option

dubsesd · 01-07-2016, 01:06 PM

that sounds like a good plan. great thinking!

Vanne · 01-07-2016, 09:27 PM

Sounds bloody tops Matt, great solution.

That brings of course the next question…

Keeping the fabric or going custom?

Cheers

Clearancediver · 01-08-2016, 11:30 AM

Why not drill/re tap the insert in the seat and drill out the hole to accept a slightly larger bolt on the mounting rail... That said I'm not too familiar with the mounting rail.... However Those inserts are used in woodworking and other applications but in a crash scenario... they will not hold up to the forces and strip and your seat is going to separate from the mounting rail...

wdb · 01-08-2016, 01:19 PM

User name noted. What a maroon. Sorry for what happened to you.

Steeler · 01-08-2016, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiltmode43

If you look at the photos closely you'll see what I mean. So sure, the bolt could grab the original insert but the amount of thread engagement will be far less than originally intended.

Matt, I eluded to the drill and retap in my original post in this thread.

What Clearancediver is saying is oversize the thread in the existing insert. ie if the original thread was 3/8-16 move up to a 1/2-13 or better still a 1/2-20 for more thread engagement.
The remaining boss, from the pictures looks more than thick enough to drill out 1 size bigger.

Edit, are the original "threaded inserts" steel, inserted into the f'glass boss from the cushion side of the seat?
Edit #2. The penny just fell and I see what you mean about refilling what is left.
I do tend to agree with Clearancedriver about the furniture nut, however if you could come up with a larger diameter washer to sandwich between the furniture insert and the seat to distribute the load it may be strong enough.

Bayonet · 01-08-2016, 06:29 PM

holy crap that sucks......sorry to hear. Hope you can find a good fix

Bimmer_Addict · 01-08-2016, 08:22 PM

Hey glad some people have been able to guide you in the right direction. Just wanted to give my two cents:

Those threads were not stripped out upon removal of the seat. The threads were stripped upon the attempted installation of the seat. As you can see from the huge scratches near the hole the previous owner simply sat under the car forcing the bolt up while someone in the car moved the seat back and forth until they finally found the hole (causing the scratches). Then instead of carefully being sure the threads were aligned he simply cross threaded the bolt with all the force he could. In short, the previous owner is not a very intelligent individual and i'm glad you posted his name. I would never purchase anything from someone who doesn't know how to use a threaded fastener properly.

Also the idea of using a T-nut or furniture nut is a very very bad idea. They don't have much pull out strength and shouldn't be used on a safety item like this. Personally I would run a tap of the same size thread through the holes to clean up the threads as best possible. I would then probably attempt to put a lock nut with a large washer inside of the seat and thread an extra length bolt into it (after going all the way through the recaro insert) for extra peace of mind. Depending upon the construction of the underside of the seat this may mean removal of upholstery to gain access to the other side of recaro's threaded insert.

Honestly those inserts are extremely damaged and I would recommend having a shop/mechanic/friend who you would trust your safety to install your seats with a method they see fit.

Alternatively you could return the seats to the sellers car they came from via his windshield and call it a day.

12-31-2015, 01:51 AM	#1
tiltmode43 I plead the 5th. 523 Rep 1,519 Posts Drives: '18 Frontier Pro-4X, '06 Z4MR Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SoCal iTrader: (10)	Purchased Recaro SPG w/Stripped/Damaged Mounting Inserts Purchased from this ad: http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1208534 Hi All, I just picked up a pair of Recaro SPG from another forum member last night. His ad listed the seats as being in great condition and the price was fair. I met up and checked out the seats for authenticity. They seemed legit based on some internet research, the condition was okay despite some cosmetic blems, and he was a nice guy. Excited me handed over the cash, loaded them up, and took off. Recaro time!!! Or at least, I thought. I got home, unloaded the seats, and did another look over. This is when I discovered the threaded inserts were all damaged to different degrees. So my question is, does anyone have experience with this or ideas for a solution? I'm not sure if it would be best to try helicoil repair or something like a rivet nut, or if either of these would be considered safe. Anyone have any tips? Prev owner said they would be fine, just install as-is, but I'm not personally comfortable with the lack of thread engagement and I'd rather get this repaired prior to installing (local shop agreed). I try not to screw too much with safety equipment but I'm hoping there is a proper fix for this as this was unexpected and the seller isn't willing to help out. Who knows, he may not have been aware or really didn't think it a big deal, I try to give benefit of the doubt in these situations. Right now, my goal is getting these beauties properly installed in my car. At the end of the day I paid cash and picked up without properly inspecting the item, definitely learned my lesson on purchasing used racing seats Any/All input is appreciated! Seat #1 Threaded insert 1: [img][/img] Threaded insert 2: [img][/img] Threaded insert 3: [img][/img] Threaded insert 4: [img][/img] Seat #2 Threaded insert 1: [img][/img] Threaded insert 2: [img][/img] Threaded insert 3: [img][/img] Threaded insert 4: [img][/img] __________________ -Matt \| Z4M Build Thread \| @violetnites \| flickr \| Last edited by tiltmode43; 04-14-2018 at 07:29 PM..
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12-31-2015, 03:43 AM	#2
Beedub Major General 423 Rep 5,327 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4 M roadster vt2-500 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	wtf...... not good, we've all done this purchases excited and not checked things over BUT, I'm sorry id be contacting the seller and asking for some money back. This is not acceptable. __________________ Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build. Multi award winning Detailing \| Wrap \| PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com
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12-31-2015, 07:49 AM	#3
Steeler Colonel 2428 Rep 2,702 Posts Drives: Built not Bought 04 Z4 VF Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kitchener Ontario Canada iTrader: (2)	Quite possible the PO did not know the threads were stripped. In any case a call to him to see what he can do for you is not unwarranted. As far as fixing, I would try oversize drilling and tapping. Even if it means opening up the holes in the mounting base. __________________ W2A Intercooled Vortech V3Si, custom ducting, Alpha N, 60# Bosch,2.62 pulley, multi port WMI, Severn Tuning(pokeybritches), Tial, magnaflow,SS race muffler, 42 design,3.91LSD, H&R, Hotchkis,ST coils,Konis, Megan camber arms, AKG SS, Nylon mounts, Poly bushings, Carbon interior, CF Aero.APEX
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12-31-2015, 09:32 AM	#4
itdnwiwbp Major 78 Rep 1,443 Posts Drives: 330iZHP Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Long Beach, CA iTrader: (10)	I had concerns considering they were out of a wrecked car (although maybe this isn't even a result of that) but that was mentioned in the ad and the other member seems like a pretty honest guy to me too. I hope you (or you two) can get it worked out so everyone's happy. __________________
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12-31-2015, 07:31 PM	#6
NickyC Lieutenant General 17439 Rep 10,645 Posts Drives: M4 CS. Former G82, x2 F82, F80 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Jacked out of my mind iTrader: (23)	Sorry to hear about your issues Tiltmode, I had somebody HOSE me this summer on a front BBK for my car. Luckily the parts were still worth something however, and I was able to sell them on (with a full disclosure of course) for about $400 less than I paid. Lousy situation as I hate being treated that way so I now how you feel. I know who sold you those seats as I've seen the FS thread. Be sure to leave a negative feedback in the iTrader rating so that others may be alerted to this seller in the future. I'd give him -2 if possible just for calling you "bro" all the time. Best of luck, sorry for the issues once again.
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12-31-2015, 10:39 PM	#7
itdnwiwbp Major 78 Rep 1,443 Posts Drives: 330iZHP Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Long Beach, CA iTrader: (10)	Sorry to hear this has turned out this way. I feel your pain. I purchased a steering wheel for my wife's car last year that was NOWHERE near the condition that was described and also a cheap commuter car recently. The seller of the car blatantly lied about pretty much everything. Just as you have, I had to chalk it up to experience. I'm a very honest person and treat everyone exactly how I would like to be treated. Unfortunately this seems to be a rarity. __________________
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01-01-2016, 01:02 PM	#8
Beedub Major General 423 Rep 5,327 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4 M roadster vt2-500 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	disgraceful treatment and ill be avoiding that seller. __________________ Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build. Multi award winning Detailing \| Wrap \| PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com
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01-02-2016, 11:01 PM	#9
tiltmode43 I plead the 5th. 523 Rep 1,519 Posts Drives: '18 Frontier Pro-4X, '06 Z4MR Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SoCal iTrader: (10)	Thanks for the kind words, everyone! For what it's worth, I took the upholstery off one of the seats and am fairly confident I can make something work that is 100% safe and effective, although the entire thing is still truly a hassle. By the way Beedub, let me know if you still want some of those beefed up vibration isolators for the DKF hangers. __________________ -Matt \| Z4M Build Thread \| @violetnites \| flickr \|
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01-03-2016, 09:54 AM	#10
Twixboy Captain 124 Rep 904 Posts Drives: '04 Z4 3.0i 6spd Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: MA iTrader: (2)	Isn't the seller local? I'm surprised he isn't taking the seats back as a return. You know where he lives! I got some parts recently from another member that weren't as described and he was willing to refund me all my money AND let me keep the parts. Anyway, I would bring the seats to a body shop to tap new threads. I had this done at the dealer with something else and it was expensive ($150/hr labor x 4 taps @ 30 min each), but necessary. I think a body shop or mechanic might be able to do it cheaper, maybe $80/hr, and maybe won't charge as many hours either since 2 hrs to do 4 taps seemed excessive to me.
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01-03-2016, 11:04 AM	#11
Beedub Major General 423 Rep 5,327 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4 M roadster vt2-500 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	tiltmode i completely forgot about those!! ill drop you a pm once I'm back at work, I'm currently knee deep i children !!! __________________ Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build. Multi award winning Detailing \| Wrap \| PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com
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01-04-2016, 12:10 PM	#13
Vanne Down Under!! 1621 Rep 4,294 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Dubai iTrader: (4)	Hi Matt, Mate so very sad to hear the seats were not as described, I was also very keen on them, maybe lucky I have a fat butt. I gotta admit I was surprised reading the log about the sale, ive bought from the same guy before and he was a standup guy. Not sure how he could have missed that the nuts were stripped.. id agree mate, esp fir something that MUST be safe, I would have also asked for a refund, I def would not put them in my car the way they are atm. I am also very suprised the guy has cold shouldered you man, thats not cool. Hope you get something sorted with the chairs and with the seller Matt, keep us updated.
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01-04-2016, 02:11 PM	#14
Westersund Captain 496 Rep 869 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Hallstahammar iTrader: (1)	What about drilling out the old inserts and glue new ones in? In case of a crash on track it's your seat belt that absorbs most of the energy anyway, not the seat or it's inserts. Making the best out of a bad hand.
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01-05-2016, 03:56 AM	#15
WickedNy Get Some 225 Rep 759 Posts Drives: 07 Z4 3.0si Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Long Island iTrader: (1) Garage List 07 z4 3.0si [0.00]	I think a heli coil would be your best option
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01-07-2016, 01:06 PM	#16
dubsesd #dubspec 6328 Rep 5,200 Posts Drives: G05 X5/ 2016 F80 M3 INDVL Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Ottawa iTrader: (2)	that sounds like a good plan. great thinking! __________________ LCI ///F80 M3 Individual Atlantis Metallic / Black Full / Carbon Cermics / 6MT MPE / M Performance & Carbon package / KW v3 / 20" HRE R101LW / 20" HRE 527s / Michelin PSS / 20% tint / 3d Design / Streckenn splitters / OEM GTS hood / EAS Carbon seatbacks / Carbon RKP sideskirt / Bootmod3 / M Performance Tri color alcantara / AWE S Flow instagram: @ dubsesd
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01-07-2016, 09:27 PM	#17
Vanne Down Under!! 1621 Rep 4,294 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Dubai iTrader: (4)	Sounds bloody tops Matt, great solution. That brings of course the next question… Keeping the fabric or going custom? Cheers __________________ 2007 EuroSpec Z4///MC - Building/Developing Z4 GT3 Powered by
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01-08-2016, 11:30 AM	#18
Clearancediver Lieutenant 86 Rep 405 Posts Drives: 2004 Z4 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Victoria, BC Canada iTrader: (0)	Why not drill/re tap the insert in the seat and drill out the hole to accept a slightly larger bolt on the mounting rail... That said I'm not too familiar with the mounting rail.... However Those inserts are used in woodworking and other applications but in a crash scenario... they will not hold up to the forces and strip and your seat is going to separate from the mounting rail... __________________ Sent from my smart phone...
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01-08-2016, 01:19 PM	#19
wdb dances with roads 4717 Rep 4,094 Posts Drives: '07 E86, '02 996, '95 Seven Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: the perimeter iTrader: (4)	User name noted. What a maroon. Sorry for what happened to you.
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01-08-2016, 06:29 PM	#21
Bayonet Private First Class 30 Rep 137 Posts Drives: Z4 Mc Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Socal iTrader: (3)	holy crap that sucks......sorry to hear. Hope you can find a good fix
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01-08-2016, 08:22 PM	#22
Bimmer_Addict Enlisted Member 8 Rep 37 Posts Drives: 2006 Z4M Roadster Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Washington iTrader: (0)	Hey glad some people have been able to guide you in the right direction. Just wanted to give my two cents: Those threads were not stripped out upon removal of the seat. The threads were stripped upon the attempted installation of the seat. As you can see from the huge scratches near the hole the previous owner simply sat under the car forcing the bolt up while someone in the car moved the seat back and forth until they finally found the hole (causing the scratches). Then instead of carefully being sure the threads were aligned he simply cross threaded the bolt with all the force he could. In short, the previous owner is not a very intelligent individual and i'm glad you posted his name. I would never purchase anything from someone who doesn't know how to use a threaded fastener properly. Also the idea of using a T-nut or furniture nut is a very very bad idea. They don't have much pull out strength and shouldn't be used on a safety item like this. Personally I would run a tap of the same size thread through the holes to clean up the threads as best possible. I would then probably attempt to put a lock nut with a large washer inside of the seat and thread an extra length bolt into it (after going all the way through the recaro insert) for extra peace of mind. Depending upon the construction of the underside of the seat this may mean removal of upholstery to gain access to the other side of recaro's threaded insert. Honestly those inserts are extremely damaged and I would recommend having a shop/mechanic/friend who you would trust your safety to install your seats with a method they see fit. Alternatively you could return the seats to the sellers car they came from via his windshield and call it a day.
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