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      06-05-2015, 10:46 AM   #23
NickyC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UntzUntzUntz View Post
That's one lineup! Is the MR2 the sketchiest car or what lol

The reason everyone finds traction an issue is because of the torque the supercharger puts down. In comparison with the turbo, you probably won't experience that with that as much. Maybe if someone had a turbo build they would've backed me up! But no

I agree. The Z4 dominates all grounds up until you start making it faster. That's where the road ends I suppose. *starts looking for e30's and s85's*
Haha, thanks. I've had a ton of fun stuff over the years, but I'm really becoming more interested there days in cars which are just fun to drive. The Z4M is about the slowest car I've ever owned in a straight line, but I wouldn't trade it for any of my other cars. I absolutely love the thing, I could see driving one for years and years as long as it stays in good mechanical condition.

I had three MR2 Turbos back in the late 90s/early 00s. The third one was the beast, fully built motor with the 20G. I had the intercooler in the trunk, the whole shabang. You just had to be careful on sweepers because when the boost hit and the backend started to slide, your brain would always tell you "TAKE YOUR FOOT OFF THE GAS", which was the absolute last thing you'd do in that car. Unfortunately, the guy I sold it to destroyed it on the Highway about two months after I sold it to him. He broke an arm, both legs, and destroyed his jaw/teeth on the steering wheel. Apparently he lost control and basically went nose first into the divider at about 90mph. Incredibly lucky to survive, but from what I've heard he's pretty messed up to this day.

The Supra was just a whole 'nother level. I picked the car up in 2001 before The Fast and Furious Craze (I ALWAYS loved the Supra). Put a T88 on it, and hung with 1000cc bikes from a roll. The acceleration of that car is like nothing I had before, nor since. Looking back on it, it's completely ridiculous to have anywhere near that power on the street. There's just no use for it.

I'm really looking forward to the coming years, especially 2018. That's when the first MKIV Supras from Japan will be able to be imported, so hopefully I can get back into a nice Supra for a realistic price. I'd like to have one along with my Z4M. This time however, I'd keep it mild and just go BPU upgrades which are good for a little over 400rwhp. Buying a car from Japan, I'd have to imagine everything I would want to do to the car would already been done regardless.

Last edited by NickyC; 06-05-2015 at 10:53 AM..
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      06-05-2015, 11:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
Actually, at equal boost levels, a centrifugal supercharger generally puts out less peak torque than any of the major forced induction mods (centrifugal, roots, twin screw, turbo).

Horsepower = torque * rpm / 5252

To produce more power over time (horsepower), you can either increase the "boom" (torque) each time a cylinder fires, or increase the number of times that boom occurs (rpm). The reason turbo cars generally have more power throughout the rpm band is because they produce more torque.

The S54 gets its power (and character) through its the sky high redline. For years, BMW M division shunned turbos, and opted instead to design cars to handle increased rpm rather than high torque. This requires tight tolerances and exotic materials, and reduced engine reliability (rpm is an engine killer)... but makes for a very exciting and peaky car. They finally caved when rpm couldn't be realistically increased further, yet they had to produce more power to remain relevant and competitive. The S54 was the final, maxed out, ultimate iteration of the old school M division's high rpm vision.

Like most street engines, the S54 becomes less efficient the higher you rev it (torque falls off as rpm increases, because the engine isn't able to fully replace the used air in a cylinder with fresh air). A centrifugal supercharger adds torque back where it normally would start to fall off. It keeps with the character of the car. The traits that make it spectacular aren't lost.

The reason I think that Frankensteining the car into something it wasn't intended to be (like a 60-130 mph record holder) is a bad idea, is because you can get there so much cheaper with another platform, and you would have to give up most of what makes this car so awesome. It's like taking a guy who successfully competed in American Ninja Warrior, and putting him on a workout plan to bench 4 plates. He could get there with a lot of time and effort... but why? He certainly wouldn't be lean and agile enough to do what he used to do (which very few others could do). Once you swap to a clutch that can handle the torque, put on some massive tires and do suspension/body work to handle the power, and throw in some turbo lag... try and do an autocross. I'm not saying that a 650 whp car isn't fun, but I think there are better ways to get there. In this car, a lot of what you're paying for are the things other cars struggle to achieve.
*golf clap*

seriously, great post.
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      06-05-2015, 02:08 PM   #25
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Have you considered ditching the s54 and throwing in something bigger? Maybe an s65? s85? People might tell you they won't fit, but it just depends on how much youre willing to modify the frame/chassis and your wallet.
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      06-05-2015, 04:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Haha, thanks. I've had a ton of fun stuff over the years, but I'm really becoming more interested there days in cars which are just fun to drive. The Z4M is about the slowest car I've ever owned in a straight line, but I wouldn't trade it for any of my other cars. I absolutely love the thing, I could see driving one for years and years as long as it stays in good mechanical condition.

I had three MR2 Turbos back in the late 90s/early 00s. The third one was the beast, fully built motor with the 20G. I had the intercooler in the trunk, the whole shabang. You just had to be careful on sweepers because when the boost hit and the backend started to slide, your brain would always tell you "TAKE YOUR FOOT OFF THE GAS", which was the absolute last thing you'd do in that car. Unfortunately, the guy I sold it to destroyed it on the Highway about two months after I sold it to him. He broke an arm, both legs, and destroyed his jaw/teeth on the steering wheel. Apparently he lost control and basically went nose first into the divider at about 90mph. Incredibly lucky to survive, but from what I've heard he's pretty messed up to this day.

The Supra was just a whole 'nother level. I picked the car up in 2001 before The Fast and Furious Craze (I ALWAYS loved the Supra). Put a T88 on it, and hung with 1000cc bikes from a roll. The acceleration of that car is like nothing I had before, nor since. Looking back on it, it's completely ridiculous to have anywhere near that power on the street. There's just no use for it.

I'm really looking forward to the coming years, especially 2018. That's when the first MKIV Supras from Japan will be able to be imported, so hopefully I can get back into a nice Supra for a realistic price. I'd like to have one along with my Z4M. This time however, I'd keep it mild and just go BPU upgrades which are good for a little over 400rwhp. Buying a car from Japan, I'd have to imagine everything I would want to do to the car would already been done regardless.
Sounds a lot like other MR2 stories lol. It's as if you're trying to balance a bucket of water. Seems in perfect balance when it's straight, but the moment you turn it, suddenly all the weight transfers on one side and that's when you realize, the MR2 has you now. Glad he's alive though it's a miracle. Maybe the next car he gets would be a Z4 lol.

Really, you're going to build a supra and stop at 400whp... really... It always starts with 400whp. Then 500... then 600... at this point you realize theirs just not enough road on this planet... but then 700 lol and so on. No but that's probably the best of both worlds. One that dominates straightaways, and the Z4 that dominates on everything else lol. Except for cup holders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
Actually, at equal boost levels, a centrifugal supercharger generally puts out less peak torque than any of the major forced induction mods (centrifugal, roots, twin screw, turbo).

Horsepower = torque * rpm / 5252

To produce more power over time (horsepower), you can either increase the "boom" (torque) each time a cylinder fires, or increase the number of times that boom occurs (rpm). The reason turbo cars generally have more power throughout the rpm band is because they produce more torque.

The S54 gets its power (and character) through its the sky high redline. For years, BMW M division shunned turbos, and opted instead to design cars to handle increased rpm rather than high torque. This requires tight tolerances and exotic materials, and reduced engine reliability (rpm is an engine killer)... but makes for a very exciting and peaky car. They finally caved when rpm couldn't be realistically increased further, yet they had to produce more power to remain relevant and competitive. The S54 was the final, maxed out, ultimate iteration of the old school M division's high rpm vision.

Like most street engines, the S54 becomes less efficient the higher you rev it (torque falls off as rpm increases, because the engine isn't able to fully replace the used air in a cylinder with fresh air). A centrifugal supercharger adds torque back where it normally would start to fall off. It keeps with the character of the car. The traits that make it spectacular aren't lost.

The reason I think that Frankensteining the car into something it wasn't intended to be (like a 60-130 mph record holder) is a bad idea, is because you can get there so much cheaper with another platform, and you would have to give up most of what makes this car so awesome. It's like taking a guy who successfully competed in American Ninja Warrior, and putting him on a workout plan to bench 4 plates. He could get there with a lot of time and effort... but why? He certainly wouldn't be lean and agile enough to do what he used to do (which very few others could do). Once you swap to a clutch that can handle the torque, put on some massive tires and do suspension/body work to handle the power, and throw in some turbo lag... try and do an autocross. I'm not saying that a 650 whp car isn't fun, but I think there are better ways to get there. In this car, a lot of what you're paying for are the things other cars struggle to achieve.
Great post! In conclusion, buy one Z4 that's either stock or supercharged, and buy another one for a turbo build that pushes 650whp lol I'm just messing.

What are some of the drawbacks with superchargers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatcubed View Post
Have you considered ditching the s54 and throwing in something bigger? Maybe an s65? s85? People might tell you they won't fit, but it just depends on how much youre willing to modify the frame/chassis and your wallet.
[u2b]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x2DcJnFdG4[/u2b]

Definitely possible considering it's a Z4 series, not even an ///M.

Personally, I'm a bit bias with engine swaps. It's no longer a Z4. With a turbo S54 you might lose some of the car's characteristics, but you don't lose the heart of it. You want to show what Z4's are capable of, not what M5 motors in a Z4 chassis are capable of. Plus, as Pokey mentioned, "The S54 was the final, maxed out, ultimate iteration of the old school M division's high rpm vision." Our s54's are part of the testament. Swapping one out is a sin!
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      06-06-2015, 06:20 AM   #27
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Hey, I'm all about buying multiple Z4's that do almost the same thing. If you're set on a Z4, why not get a 2.5i and swap in a turbo S54. Then leave the 2.5i badges.
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      06-15-2015, 09:24 PM   #28
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after George, I probably put the most miles on my Z4m ESS-VT2-525 kit. About 40-50k miles on it, with the car at 87k miles now.

With a supercharger, you can get the top ESS or VF kit, and then add 2-3 more psi with custom pulleys, injectors, and tune, and be pretty close to 475rwp in the cold. The kits are very ambient temperature sensitive, feels like a 50hp difference between 40* ambient and 90* ambient honestly.

Now with about 430rwhp, 1st gear you can put down 50% throttle. 2nd gear you can put down 90% of it. 3rd gear 100%. This is on 275/35/18 Bridgestone RE-11 tires, that I've cut a 1.86s 60 foot time. Your quarter mile times will be high 11s if you're a great drive, or low 12s. A car that will hang with a stock new Stingray.

So thats what you can expect with a well tuned, top end of the supercharger kits.
1st gear - super fun, very short, an excercise in restraint
2nd gear - wow much fun, just enough slip to make it fun, but accelerate strong. Punch it at 4,000rpm and you'll get a kick in the chest up to 8,000rpm. Most impressive gear
3rd gear - long weightless feeling of acceleration, not as punchy unless you're in sport mode. Kinda exciting, but not scary
4th gear - smooth power, pulls decently from 80-120 or so. Nice for highway pulls because you don't have to shift. Dispatches many V8 sports cars. Not scary. Not punchy acceleration. No kick in the pants

With a turbo, I'd think the first 2 gears would be like 50% power, 3rd gear 75% power, and strong punchy torque in 4th gear. Definitely more kick up in highway speeds, but a lot less usable on the street. I sometimes wish I had more "scary" power on the highway, but I don't want to spend another $30k to get it.
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      06-16-2015, 02:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZStig View Post
after George, I probably put the most miles on my Z4m ESS-VT2-525 kit. About 40-50k miles on it, with the car at 87k miles now.

With a supercharger, you can get the top ESS or VF kit, and then add 2-3 more psi with custom pulleys, injectors, and tune, and be pretty close to 475rwp in the cold. The kits are very ambient temperature sensitive, feels like a 50hp difference between 40* ambient and 90* ambient honestly.

Now with about 430rwhp, 1st gear you can put down 50% throttle. 2nd gear you can put down 90% of it. 3rd gear 100%. This is on 275/35/18 Bridgestone RE-11 tires, that I've cut a 1.86s 60 foot time. Your quarter mile times will be high 11s if you're a great drive, or low 12s. A car that will hang with a stock new Stingray.

So thats what you can expect with a well tuned, top end of the supercharger kits.
1st gear - super fun, very short, an excercise in restraint
2nd gear - wow much fun, just enough slip to make it fun, but accelerate strong. Punch it at 4,000rpm and you'll get a kick in the chest up to 8,000rpm. Most impressive gear
3rd gear - long weightless feeling of acceleration, not as punchy unless you're in sport mode. Kinda exciting, but not scary
4th gear - smooth power, pulls decently from 80-120 or so. Nice for highway pulls because you don't have to shift. Dispatches many V8 sports cars. Not scary. Not punchy acceleration. No kick in the pants

With a turbo, I'd think the first 2 gears would be like 50% power, 3rd gear 75% power, and strong punchy torque in 4th gear. Definitely more kick up in highway speeds, but a lot less usable on the street. I sometimes wish I had more "scary" power on the highway, but I don't want to spend another $30k to get it.
Nice man you put some good miles on her. Looks like ESS sells solid kits. Not as powerful as VF or GPower I assume, but really solid. Would you do it again?

475whp on a good day sounds pretty damn fun lol I knew superchargers were really sensitive to ambient temperature but I didn't think by that much! Sucks to be here in CA. It rains for maybe 4 hours in the whole year.

Maybe I'll start another thread talking about different types of superchargers, cooling methods, and just overall efficiency to get the most you can from the Vortech.
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      06-17-2015, 12:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZStig View Post
after George, I probably put the most miles on my Z4m ESS-VT2-525 kit. About 40-50k miles on it, with the car at 87k miles now.

With a supercharger, you can get the top ESS or VF kit, and then add 2-3 more psi with custom pulleys, injectors, and tune, and be pretty close to 475rwp in the cold. The kits are very ambient temperature sensitive, feels like a 50hp difference between 40* ambient and 90* ambient honestly.

Now with about 430rwhp, 1st gear you can put down 50% throttle. 2nd gear you can put down 90% of it. 3rd gear 100%. This is on 275/35/18 Bridgestone RE-11 tires, that I've cut a 1.86s 60 foot time. Your quarter mile times will be high 11s if you're a great drive, or low 12s. A car that will hang with a stock new Stingray.

So thats what you can expect with a well tuned, top end of the supercharger kits.
1st gear - super fun, very short, an excercise in restraint
2nd gear - wow much fun, just enough slip to make it fun, but accelerate strong. Punch it at 4,000rpm and you'll get a kick in the chest up to 8,000rpm. Most impressive gear
3rd gear - long weightless feeling of acceleration, not as punchy unless you're in sport mode. Kinda exciting, but not scary
4th gear - smooth power, pulls decently from 80-120 or so. Nice for highway pulls because you don't have to shift. Dispatches many V8 sports cars. Not scary. Not punchy acceleration. No kick in the pants

With a turbo, I'd think the first 2 gears would be like 50% power, 3rd gear 75% power, and strong punchy torque in 4th gear. Definitely more kick up in highway speeds, but a lot less usable on the street. I sometimes wish I had more "scary" power on the highway, but I don't want to spend another $30k to get it.
I have the VT2-500 but with euro catless headers and a catless Spipe and i am seeing the same numbers as you.

I even rebuilt my engine with vanos parts, ARP fasteners and WPC rod bearings and VAC 20% extra flow pump, I use Mobil1 0w40 oil with that.

The ESS kit is very very reliable, it has never let me down once

If you want some piece of mind, you can go with the ESS kit blindly
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      06-17-2015, 02:09 AM   #31
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Yeah I've never seen a bad review on ESS kits, ever. The VF seems on par with the ESS in terms of quality, but I've read mixed reviews about it. Maybe it's the air/water cooling argument that never has an end.

I'm more concerned about a proper water/meth setup. Since cooling pretty much makes or breaks it, that would be something I'd definitely include. Which kit has a better manifold design to support that?
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      06-17-2015, 02:33 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UntzUntzUntz View Post
Yeah I've never seen a bad review on ESS kits, ever. The VF seems on par with the ESS in terms of quality, but I've read mixed reviews about it. Maybe it's the air/water cooling argument that never has an end.

I'm more concerned about a proper water/meth setup. Since cooling pretty much makes or breaks it, that would be something I'd definitely include. Which kit has a better manifold design to support that?
Definitely ESS
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      06-17-2015, 08:42 PM   #33
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I had an AEM water/meth kit, but it wasn't reliable because the controller fried, and then the check valve failed and it dumped the mixture into my inlet pipe. Thankfully it was almost empty, so it didn't cause any damage.

I'm planning to re-install it, with the oem windshield washer tank, but I can't find the correct rubber adapters yet, for the lines
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      06-17-2015, 09:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZStig View Post
I had an AEM water/meth kit, but it wasn't reliable because the controller fried, and then the check valve failed and it dumped the mixture into my inlet pipe. Thankfully it was almost empty, so it didn't cause any damage.

I'm planning to re-install it, with the oem windshield washer tank, but I can't find the correct rubber adapters yet, for the lines
The newer AEM nozzles have the check valve built in.
What happened to your controller that caused it to fry?
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