Want more power out of s54, don't know which route

[Calichase]

So I have always had the intent to go f/I on my z4mc but recently have had some second thoughts.

My original plans were to build for 480-510 whp /350 ft lbs on a stock block, with a lot of emphasis on cooling. A higher boost option (9-11psi with meth, and utilization of the sport button to activate high boost) and a standard boost level of 4-6psi for regular driving.

But I'm at the point now where I don't know if I'm ready to go all in yet. Especially for track driving. So I have been researching other na options. (Note, I tried to approximate most of these numbers off of Ttfs dyno. Ofcourse all dynos read differently, and even different runs on the same dyno differ, but it atleast minimizes the variance some.)

So let's talk some numbers, now ofcourse these are all averages and approximates, and only peak power. In most cases a better power curve is more desirable then just peak power.

Also, let's assume each level has been re tuned from previous.

Stock s54 (on avg)
-275whp/235 ft lbs

-s54 with exhaust, headers, cat less section 1, dyno tune, pullies (basically everything but csl airbox, and cams) (results will vary based on header type, exhaust)~5k
-300-315whp/260ft lbs

-s54 with all of above plus cams and 3.91 or 4.10-$8k
-330-340whp/275ft lbs

-s54 with all of the above and csl intake~10k
-350-365whp/275 ft lbs

-s54 with all of the above plus 3.5L stoker, ported heads-$15k+
-400whp, 285 ft lbs


Add e85 to any of these( if swap lines) and get 5-10% more with Ttfs tune. (Only problem is frank can tune our Dme to swap back and forget between pump and e85 like he can on the m3)

Now we all know f/I is the best bang for your buck on our engines, but the more I track my m coupe the more I worry about reliability, mainly issues with cooling and heat soak. I believe if I was to do a proper time trial supercharged s54 car, I would end up spending another 5k to make sure cooling and drivetrain are up to handle things. But at the end of the day the kit would still lose power after constant runs. And all of this still doesn't take into consideration the affect of 150% more power on a car and what else needs to be upgraded (brakes, suspension, etc)


So I currently make 307whp, and 270 ft lbs with euro headers, dkf section 1, rpis and a Ttfs dyno tune. I have focused "adding lightness" but have reached the point where I am at an end, unless I start to replace body panels. My engine seems to make a lot of torque and I'm happy with everything about it. But would like a bit more (like always).

I'm leaning towards a differential upgrade 4.10 and cams. I cant justify a 2500 carbon intake (especially since I have been told I may loose torque), nor a 10k Stroker kit.

I think cams may be a better option, however s54 cams are still an unknown field with a small sample size. That and know one really knows when you need to replace your followers (based on cam size I assume).

There is also another option of doing e85 and a bump in compression with heads. But that's also uncharted territory, and may not be worth it, nor is e85 that readily available around me.

lastly, by increasing the red line to say 9000, that opens up a lot more power in the car with a proper set of cams. Perhaps head work, including a listened valvetrain to do so with proper flowing heads would net decent gains? But that also comes at high price

Lots of thoughts!

[Vanne]

If your not gonna go the SC route, (which you should, and your mind knows you should if your searching for max output from the S54), then id go the VAC Stroker kit.

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac...-kit-p757.aspx

carbon box, and some really nice suspension (none of this bulk made crap), and before doing anything, id go and talk to some of the guys that build S54 race engines and ask them whats what.

seriously, searching for NA power out of a S54 gets pretty darn expensive for not much bang for buck.

[Steeler]

Check out TTFS he does some incredible things with the E46 & 90 M3's.
Maybe some of that could trickle down to the Z4 platform.
His Prima Kit Plus and Prima Elite system is one thing I would look into.

[fullerra]

Hello,

After a year-plus hiatus, I'm back.

If pure power is what you want, then you cant beat supercharging.
FI and track driving (depending on how much you do) don't always go
hand in hand unless you really have all of the cooling issues sorted out (all you have to do is open the posts of all the limp mode headaches people went through before getting things working reliably)

I decided to go the N/A route, and am happy I did. I think it fits the chassis well.
No overheating to worry abt, no limp modes, pure N/A goodness.

At this point I have just about every N/A mod you can get before going to an all out bottom end build (hopefully this winter

The car is making 334 SAE whp on a Dynojet (have to make sure when you quote whp numbers you are referring to the same mfgr dyno), and make sure they are SAE corrected (uncorrected I am running 349whp)

On the car currently (just engine)

Turner underdrive pulleys
Fabspeed headers
DKF section 1 (no cats anywhere)
RPI exhaust
Evolve Carbon airbox
Epic Tune
288/280 cams
replaced rod bearings
removed A/C

Dinan3.91 Differential
light-weight flywheel

remember the differential will not change whp, much in the same way
you will have the same whp reading regardless of whether you do a 3rd, 4th or 5th gear pull (always try to do in the gear that has a 1:1 ratio)

as far as power goes, the cams, headers and airbox, all made the most noticeable gains in power (were added separately)

Also before you start adding gobbs of power, decide what your ultimate goal is.... if you eventually want to time trial / hillclimb, you will start seeing your points and thus car competing class skyrocket once you go forced induction.

as a side note and shameless self plug, Samsonas dog-box trans w/ straight cut gears have made it in to the beast this yr!

[Westersund]

Most bang for the buck are new cams and a tune. A CSL intake is not needed until after 480 hp since the standard intake is so well made. Cams, tune, headers and an exhaust with race cats would be my choice.

[Calichase]

Originally Posted by Vanne

If your not gonna go the SC route, (which you should, and your mind knows you should if your searching for max output from the S54), then id go the VAC Stroker kit.

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac...-kit-p757.aspx

carbon box, and some really nice suspension (none of this bulk made crap), and before doing anything, id go and talk to some of the guys that build S54 race engines and ask them whats what.

seriously, searching for NA power out of a S54 gets pretty darn expensive for not much bang for buck.

I have a feeling your right. Perhaps there is an intermediate step before the supercharger.

However I just can't justify a stroker kit in consideration with value.

[Calichase]

Originally Posted by dbarton62

Check out TTFS he does some incredible things with the E46 & 90 M3's.
Maybe some of that could trickle down to the Z4 platform.
His Prima Kit Plus and Prima Elite system is one thing I would look into.

So ironically frank and I will most likely do this build together. He has tuned my car already and I've gone to a few events as one of his "team." If I was To go s/c, it would be between the vf and his prima plus

[Calichase]

Originally Posted by Westersund

Most bang for the buck are new cams and a tune. A CSL intake is not needed until after 480 hp since the standard intake is so well made. Cams, tune, headers and an exhaust with race cats would be my choice.

I have to agree. Any recommendations on profiles? 288/280? Do I need new followers? If so, Must they be coated?

Isn't the reason behind replacing them the idea that you want new cams to wear evenly with new followers? Therefore if you have a new set of cams and old followers they may wear the cams abnormally or faster?

[SmartBastard]

Originally Posted by fullerra

Hello,

After a year-plus hiatus, I'm back.

If pure power is what you want, then you cant beat supercharging.
FI and track driving (depending on how much you do) don't always go
hand in hand unless you really have all of the cooling issues sorted out (all you have to do is open the posts of all the limp mode headaches people went through before getting things working reliably)

I decided to go the N/A route, and am happy I did. I think it fits the chassis well.
No overheating to worry abt, no limp modes, pure N/A goodness.

At this point I have just about every N/A mod you can get before going to an all out bottom end build (hopefully this winter

The car is making 334 SAE whp on a Dynojet (have to make sure when you quote whp numbers you are referring to the same mfgr dyno), and make sure they are SAE corrected (uncorrected I am running 349whp)

On the car currently (just engine)

Turner underdrive pulleys
Fabspeed headers
DKF section 1 (no cats anywhere)
RPI exhaust
Evolve Carbon airbox
Epic Tune
288/280 cams
replaced rod bearings
removed A/C

Dinan3.91 Differential
light-weight flywheel

remember the differential will not change whp, much in the same way
you will have the same whp reading regardless of whether you do a 3rd, 4th or 5th gear pull (always try to do in the gear that has a 1:1 ratio)

as far as power goes, the cams, headers and airbox, all made the most noticeable gains in power (were added separately)

Also before you start adding gobbs of power, decide what your ultimate goal is.... if you eventually want to time trial / hillclimb, you will start seeing your points and thus car competing class skyrocket once you go forced induction.

as a side note and shameless self plug, Samsonas dog-box trans w/ straight cut gears have made it in to the beast this yr!

How is the airbox working out for you? Does your heel toe work for rev matching?

[Westersund]

Originally Posted by Calichase

I have to agree. Any recommendations on profiles? 288/280? Do I need new followers? If so, Must they be coated?

Isn't the reason behind replacing them the idea that you want new cams to wear evenly with new followers? Therefore if you have a new set of cams and old followers they may wear the cams abnormally or faster?

I don't know to be honest, but it sounds reasonable.

I'll qoute a part of my post in another thread: "Most bang for the buck is a 296/280 cam shaft, which is the maximum duration the stock valve springs can handle reliably, and a tune and that will give you about 370 hp. That's what was said in the thread, so don't shoot the messenger. However I tend to believe someone who've spend more on the engine than the car is worth and the job was done by one of the best tuners (Köhler) in Sweden when it comes to NA BMW engines."

It's from the thread I made about a Swedish E46 M3 with over 400 WHP N/A. What I wrote are the specs I got from the owner of the car and a reputable BMW tuning company built his engine.

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1230186

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by Calichase

So ironically frank and I will most likely do this build together. He has tuned my car already and I've gone to a few events as one of his "team." If I was To go s/c, it would be between the vf and his prima plus

Originally Posted by Calichase

I have to agree. Any recommendations on profiles? 288/280? Do I need new followers? If so, Must they be coated?

Isn't the reason behind replacing them the idea that you want new cams to wear evenly with new followers? Therefore if you have a new set of cams and old followers they may wear the cams abnormally or faster?

Hey if you and Frank are going to do the build, he will know best what will work for the results you are looking for.
I have had conversations with Frank regarding cam durations. He says that the Vanos system has a lot of adjustment that can make longer duration cams streetable.
See here for a TTFS NA build. http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...8-S54B35-Build

[fullerra]

CSL Evolve Airbox has been working out well. I was one of the earlier guys with the airbox. Once I switched to the tune w/ EPIC (prior to the recent fix by Evolve) the heel-toe problem has been non-existent. I could have gone for a SC set-up cheaper than the airbox/288/280 cams, but that wasn't the point. I personally wanted to stay N/A, and don't regret it. That's just my opinion though...

[Calichase]

Originally Posted by fullerra

CSL Evolve Airbox has been working out well. I was one of the earlier guys with the airbox. Once I switched to the tune w/ EPIC (prior to the recent fix by Evolve) the heel-toe problem has been non-existent. I could have gone for a SC set-up cheaper than the airbox/288/280 cams, but that wasn't the point. I personally wanted to stay N/A, and don't regret it. That's just my opinion though...

So two questions I have for everyone.

Should I replace followers with 288/280 and more aggressive cams?

And what is the gain from just cams with a custom dyno tune, on 93 with euro headers/cat less exhaust but stock intake?

[Vanne]

id like to go the 296/288 cams.. but was wondering why nearly no one does that? its the same price..

why does everyone go for 288/280?

or even 304/296..

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Calichase

So two questions I have for everyone.

Should I replace followers with 288/280 and more aggressive cams?

And what is the gain from just cams with a custom dyno tune, on 93 with euro headers/cat less exhaust but stock intake?

Per Turner and Schrick, yes, new followers are needed. DLC coated--synthetic diamond like stuff! Same thing that's used in the 991 GT3.

Originally Posted by Vanne

id like to go the 296/288 cams.. but was wondering why nearly no one does that? its the same price..

why does everyone go for 288/280?

or even 304/296..

Once you get into the more extreme ranges (and lift) you're talking special pistons and VANOS deletes, followers and special valve springs. Pretty much race engine stuff.

Turner has some good details on application and requirements (including new followers, etc.).

[Vanne]

Thanks Ron, once again

[Westersund]

Originally Posted by Vanne

id like to go the 296/288 cams.. but was wondering why nearly no one does that? its the same price..

why does everyone go for 288/280?

or even 304/296..

The stock valve springs can't handle more than 296/280 reliably, that's why.

[Vanne]

So is 296/280 a good option? what needs to be replaced when going with this?

[Westersund]

Nothing more than the followers I believe and you want a tune to make the most out of the new cam.

[Calichase]

Originally Posted by Westersund

Nothing more than the followers I believe and you want a tune to make the most out of the new cam.

Any idea what the gains would be with just cams and a dyno tune from Ttfs to optimize it. This would be in addition to euro headers but oem intake.

10-20whp? 5 trq? Or am I dreaming

I have a feeling to really get the most of a high duration cam you need to raise the rev limiter to 8500 which require revised valvetrain

[pokeybritches]

I would do a carbon airbox before cams. Nothing beats that growl. A carbon airbox is also much easier to unload if you ever decide to sell your car, or worse, if it is ever wrecked.

[Calichase]

On a side note, does anyone know the diameter of oem euro headers? 2.25"?

Also, is the oem section 2, 2.5"?