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02-16-2014, 11:26 PM | #1 |
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Aftermarket DSC upgrade for track use?
Hey all,
One reason I have hesitated to track my Z4MC is that the DSC can't be used on-track. I can drive the car dramatically more effectively with the DSC off, in ways that do not at all apply to the stability control system on the Porsche Turbo S. I spun the car once during a track weekend, at a track I intentionally chose for generous run-off room, and have been a bit wary since then. I was able to hold onto it for several oscillations, but couldn't get ahead of the cycle and eventually lost it (fortunately 0 damage to the car, barely stayed on-track). Though the car is for sale, I'm thinking about keeping it if I can fit an aftermarket stability control system that can be set with very generous, track-appropriate configuration without a tremendous amount of work. Has anyone done this? The main thing I'm interested in is a little extra help bringing a spin back under control. |
02-17-2014, 12:52 AM | #2 |
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I had wondered about this as well several years ago. I think it would take too much R&D. Maybe there's a way to lessen the inputs of the accelerometers.
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02-17-2014, 12:53 AM | #3 |
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If i remember correctly the E46 M3 CSL and CS have an intermediate DSC mode called M-Track which allows for a bit more slip before reigning it in. With some re-programming it could be retrofitted to the regular E46 M3's but as our ECU's are different doubt it can be retrofitted on our cars... Don't know of any other options...
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02-17-2014, 10:42 AM | #4 | ||
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I'm going to try and keep this short, since my views on DSC has been well documented here and elsewhere. IMO, Yoda's philosophy can be applied to DSC too. Quote:
But as far as THIS particular chassis is concerned, once you started the oscillation it's already TOO LATE. The relatively short chassis coupled with RWD means the force needed to slap the tank is far less than say, a 3 series or a late model Porsche (Porsche has its own set of problems, since there are more mass concentrated behind the rear axle, and it generates far more force and momentum to create the pendulum effect, i.e. tank slapper, but they seem to have overcome the laws of physics in the last 3 generations). If you haven't reduced the oscillation by the 2nd movement, it'll become increasingly difficult to recover.
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02-17-2014, 01:23 PM | #5 | |||
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My two cents George |
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02-18-2014, 11:47 PM | #6 |
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Initially I was convinced that if I could not drive without interference from the DSC, I was not driving well enough and was being sloppy. Unfortunately I'm pretty confident not only from my own experience, but quite a few other people that the very normal / almost necessary levels of understeer that this car demonstrates on a track is enough to trip the DSC and massively reduce engine power, with delayed restoration of that power even when the slippage has stopped. It is somewhat more generous with oversteer and so I have never had a problem with it interfering then.
In the case I spun, it was an off-camber sweeping turn and I applied slightly too much power, too early. Then in attempting to recover I did not properly account for the rear being light due to the camber and some descent. I am by no means an expert driver on the track, probably moderate (lots of experience with tactical, deserted mountain roads — only 5-6 track days). So in order to learn I definitely want some degree of safety net when I screw up, yet with the DSC on for a full track day, I was neither learning nor having fun, just being frustrated by it unpredictably deciding to cut power with very minor slippage. It is surprising to me how much the systems have improved, judging by the 2012 Turbo S not having literally any of these negative characteristics, but I'd be willing to spend $3-5k to get a better stability control system in the car and start converting it to a safe track practice vehicle. |
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02-19-2014, 09:11 AM | #7 | |
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I leave it on for the first session. Feel out the track and conditions. Also go to a track day when it rains. Work on your car control in the wet. We have a track around here that is sealed and when it rains, it is like ice. Can barely go over 30 in some parts. Not extremely fun but you learn your car quickly and how much countersteer to give. |
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02-19-2014, 09:27 AM | #8 | |
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My two cents. George |
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02-19-2014, 11:48 AM | #9 | |
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When you drive a car with no traction control for a few years, you get a driver like this dude right here: Proud to be lebanese |
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02-19-2014, 12:10 PM | #10 |
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If you're afraid of taking your car off track or spinning, you probably can't afford to track the car. You shouldn't track a car you can't afford to leave at the track or at least repair in the event of a catastrophe. Some companies like lockton motorsports now offer HPDE insurance, so if you really want to spend $3000 for a safety net just pay them to cover your weekends.
I personally find myself having to manhandle the Z4M to be effective on track, and if I forget to turn of DSC I immediately notice the first hot-lap.
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02-19-2014, 05:54 PM | #11 |
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I'm thinking racelogic traction control has a solution, but might screw with our electronics and throw it into limp mode
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02-19-2014, 07:03 PM | #12 |
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z4mSteve, I can definitely afford to leave the car at the track. I've considered instead tracking my 2012 911 Turbo S (hasn't turned 4k miles yet), and have had fun modding up a Cayenne Turbo to 600HP.
I don't think this has anything to do with money. I'd like to have a greater degree of freedom to improve my driving skills without going entirely without stability control as an aid if a situation exceeds my ability. Far more of a concern than wrecking the car is being injured in the process. |
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02-19-2014, 07:09 PM | #13 |
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gmd2003, I think you are absolutely right. A lot of modern stability control systems can actually enhance the limits of handling by routinely doing single-wheel braking (without visibly activating the DSC warning light). That is definitely not what I'm looking for here.
My only interest is a system that is very tolerant, to allow me to drive the car entirely manually, except if normal limits are significantly exceeded and it's pretty obvious the car is entering a spin. In such a situation, I will be making inputs to attempt to resolve it, but for additional reassurance as I gain experience it would be much better to have a stability system to assist in the process. As has been mentioned, the short wheelbase of this car means that there is some degree of finesse in breaking out of an early spin, and while I'm very interested to master this by my own merits, if I get it wrong once or twice I don't want that to be game over for the car (or a long term injury for myself). I don't expect this situation to happen even once per track day. But even once every 10 track days, if it happens near a wall and I fail to contain it (even by a small margin), that is my concern. |
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02-19-2014, 07:50 PM | #14 |
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02-19-2014, 08:34 PM | #15 | |
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02-20-2014, 09:32 PM | #16 |
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I came from a Z3MCoupe where the ASC was no where nearly as invasive. After my first track day with my Z4 MCoupe I was almost ready to sell. The DSC was so intrusive it ruined my day.
I realize now it likely has to deal with my driving style. Its really only a certain condition for me: turns where the apex is part of decreasing elevation changes (1 and 5 and NJMP-L) DSC off cured it, but I did have a minor off track excursion on my next HPDE. So until I get better I don't want to turn it off. Does a decent suspension setup reduce the DSC invasiveness dramatically? Other than PFC pads I'm stock. Im hoping coilovers and camber plates will reduce it immensely. Is this a realistic expectation? |
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02-21-2014, 10:21 AM | #17 | |
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George |
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