GC sway bars effects setup and camber?

[Vanne]

Hi guys, after seeing those nice GC race sways in the for sale section, i was rather intrigued on how this would effect the cars setup? the front and rear sways being much stiffer than stock, is this going to effect camber on turn in? after fitting those front sways (not even talking about the rear atm as i know some guys completely disconnect them) will this effect the suspension Geo? is a re-alignment, re Geo required/advised? and if so, what would one suggest?

cheers ..

and what about those rears? …

Keeping in mind that my OEM stock sways have a few kms on them, and are most probably beyond tired.. (reminder to myself to check them next time i am under there…)

[The HACK]

No. Swaybars do not affect static camber. You do not need an additional alignment as long as none of the components removed touches any of the eccentric bolts used to align for camber, any of the slotted holes for camber and toe, or the adjustment nut up front for front toe. On the E85/6 chassis there's no need to remove any suspension component other than the swaybars themselves to install so theoretically you will not need to re-align the car.

The ONLY tricky part, is the car needs to be on even ground and both sides equally loaded to tighten down the swaybar links, which means you'll need either a 4 post lift or a ramp handy for the install. And ideally you want to make sure all the NEW components do not interfere with any suspension arms or drive components, as I've seen poorly designed and installed rear swaybars come in contact with drive-shafts or control arms before. AND keep an eye on the installed angle of the bar and the link, a proper install will have the bar sit perpendicular to the plane of suspension movement and making a 90º angle with the swaybar link...Thus for some applications an adjustable link is required to make this happen.

Also, do keep in mind that larger swaybars are like stiffer springs, and the forces applied across the bar tend to expose weak points in the mounting points, i.e. the swaybar mounts. I would seriously consider welding reinforcement plates at the front swaybar mount to chassis, as the studs ripping out of the mount is a commonplace problem with uprated, thicker swaybars.

As for how it affects camber on track, it doesn't, really. What the swaybar will do is remove some of the "independent-ness" of the suspension and prevent the inside suspension from unloading, thus eliminating or reducing body roll (hence anti-roll bar, the proper name for the swaybar). Think of it as artificially boosting the rebound ONLY on one side of the car (inside in a corner). The outside is still going to compress, and thus that's what's controlling the outside camber, but at the same time, the inside won't be allowed to expand as much since the swaybar now redistributes the forces of compression across both sides of the body.

In a multi-link or double wishbone system where camber gain is more linear, such as the rear of our cars, this results in exactly as described above, it will feel like stiffening the rebound on the inside while camber is free to increase in the middle of the turn, leading to quicker weight transfer but reducing static, mid-turn grip. On a MacPherson strut up front, the effects are more complex. A stiffer front bar on a MacStrut can yield positive results because as long as roll is being reduced, camber LOSS will be controlled because the inside suspension isn't allowed to fully expand, artificially altering the roll geometry temporarily, thus grip up front is added artificially because camber is better controlled under this circumstance. HOWEVER. if your cornering force is sufficient enough to LIFT the inside front wheel off the ground, it essentially eliminates that benefit and drastically reduces front grip.

If you're still reading after that long winded brain dump, all I can (and will) say is this. If you install aftermarket swaybars, start out at the SOFTEST setting first, go drive the car around on the track at speed, see and feel how the car behaves against baseline, and if you notice that it is slower through a certain turn because of teh understeer (or oversteer), tighten the opposite end accordingly until you stop gaining speed above baseline.

[itdnwiwbp]

Great info! Thanks, Hack.

[inTgr8r]

Nuf said!

[Beedub]

op i was always told these don't work with KW CS sadly.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Beedub

op i was always told these don't work with KW CS sadly.

Interesting.....
Did you ever hear what the issue is?

The CS have shorter end links (as do my MCS), but that could be worked out with shorter adjustable links.
I can't think of where there would be any other problems.

[Vanne]

Thanks Hack. Was hoping youd chime in. Much appreciated though not too sure I have time between sets (generally 30 mins) and getting under the carto adjust the end links.. though I would if I could ;-) so soft as possible first? Will a proper race geo shop know how to set this up?

Byron, man, I hope thats not right...

[The HACK]

Proper race shop will know how to install and set right.

If you can't get under the car and "dial" it in between sessions, then I would just note how the car behaves and when each end gives up the grip and how, then adjust after...Although this will take MULTIPLE events to fine tune.

The other option, is to set the rear to full soft to start, since the rear's behavior to stiffer sways are more linear and predictable. Then fine-tune the front depending on your needs, since the front end links are exposed and all you need to do is remove one wheel to adjust. If I am not mistaken, the end links on the GC bar slides forward/backward on a bracket and is not attached to preset holes in the front.

[inTgr8r]

^exactly, the GC links are on sliders and are very easy to adjust as you note.
Just mark the current position so that it's easy to go back to if your change is not what you want.

[Vanne]

how about the front guys, iam i going to have issues with the fit like Byron mentioned?

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Vanne

how about the front guys, iam i going to have issues with the fit like Byron mentioned?

Contact GC and they will confirm.
I have done the same for my MCS struts, I'll let you know when I hear back.

It must be related to the length of the end link shipped, if that's all it is then the fix is easy peasy.
Adjustable links can be had in almost any length you want.

[Beedub]

sorry guys i cant comment GC told me they wont work with the clubsport damper quite some time ago... needless to say I'm glad i left the stock ARB in place anyhow as i feel they are just right with the clubsports, tiny amount of roll and what is their is helping traction.

[AriuSen]

I want to get front sway bar to reduce oversteer mid.corner but I am worried I will lose front grip....

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by AriuSen

I want to get front sway bar to reduce oversteer mid.corner but I am worried I will lose front grip....

Did you try without the rear bar yet?

[AriuSen]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

Did you try without the rear bar yet?

I will actually try this weekend. I didn't do in the last event cuz it was a track that I don't go often so I wouldn't have a comparison.
BTW I'm not sure I asked u his before...Sorry if I did....I saw that I'd a pita to remove completely...is it OK to just unbolt both sides and leave it hanging?

[Vanne]

Just flogged off an email to GC...

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by AriuSen

I will actually try this weekend. I didn't do in the last event cuz it was a track that I don't go often so I wouldn't have a comparison.
BTW I'm not sure I asked u his before...Sorry if I did....I saw that I'd a pita to remove completely...is it OK to just unbolt both sides and leave it hanging?

It been a while since I looked at the OE bracket ( had rear H&R for a while)

You should only disconnect one side, so that the bar is kept in place and not rub on the drive shafts.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Vanne

Just flogged off an email to GC...

I got a reply back but they were very vague in their reply.

I gave them all relevant data for MCS shuts end links length etc.
They answered none of it.

The only thing they mention is the difference between the two available models.

"Our Large front bar has an adjustment range of 29mm-34mm and our Medium bars range is 28mm-32mm"

They didn't mention anything about requested MCS compatibility, end link length or if there was any difference in bar diameters.

This is the sort of thing that annoyed the hell out of me the last time I dealt with them.

I did find a note on the web site relating to tab height.
"Please note that ALL sway bars only fit stock sway bar tab height"

I'm sure that's what Byron was referring to.
I'm sure they would do a custom length or just delete the end link.
.

[Vanne]

Hello Vanne,
Thank you for contacting us. Our Z4M swaybars will work with your KW
suspension. Please feel free to contact me if you have any additional
questions, or if you would like to place an order.
Thanks,
Donovan


On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 21:37:21 -0700, <vanline@hotmail.com>
> Comments: Hi, I have a 07 BMW Z4M coupe (e86) with KW clubsports and i
> am looking at buying your front race swaybars.
>
> will i have any fitment issues?
>
> SKU #SBZ4MFRONT
>
> Cheers

Thats the reply I got today..

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

I did find a note on the web site relating to tab height.
"Please note that ALL sway bars only fit stock sway bar tab height"

Probably because the bars come with non-adjustable end links. From all the pictures I've seen of the kit, the end links are fixed length. Hence you will need adjustable links, or links made to a certain length to accommodate the differences in different strut designs.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

The automotive aftermarket industry is bleeding knowledge. Fast. When the industry was in its prime, all through the 60s, 70s, and 80s, you have a bunch of young kids in their late teens starting out at most of these local speed-shops, working on their own cars, tinkering, and gaining tribal knowledge about what things do what on what car. Those same guys in the 60s and 70s move up the ranks in the industry, and by the mid 90s are well in their waning years of productivity. By early 2000s the backbone of the industry have mostly reached retirement age, and that same tribal knowledge isn't passed onto the next generation because those that are entering into the industry in the 90s and early 2000s don't know how to work on their own car. Or those that DO, are working on cars that are increasingly difficult to work on. Take a look at our mighty MZ4 Coupe. I have all the tools and knowledge to work on a vast majority of the mechanical issues except for what happens inside the engine. Just 2-1/2 years later, my wife's old E92 328i? I never even took the wheels off of that car the entire time we "owned" it.

So what's happening now, is People that entered the industry in the 60s and 70s, who were executives at automotive companies, are leaving the industry faster. People who have entered the industry in the 80s are now in executive positions and aren't usually the ones that deals directly with the customers, although they certainly have the tribal knowledge to do so. Those that enter the industry in the 90s and early 2000s are now in management position and while they may be knowledgeable, they refrain from working with customers because of liability. Those that face the customers today, typically are your millennial type. Someone who's rarely ever turned a wrench, or have turned a wrench but simply don't have that universal knowledge that the last 2 generations have. They rely on a computer database to tell them what fits and what doesn't fit. They're not authorized to tell you to go modify your end links or buy adjustable end links because their managers are afraid of liability. Thus they give you vague answers and as little info as possible because they either don't know it, or can't tell you, or a combination of both.

It is the state of the business we're in, and it is the sad and unfortunate truth today, that those of us in the enthusiast community, those of us who used to drive this industry, are a dying breed. More and more of these cars being built are built as a disposable commodity and the aftermarket is just adjusting to reflect that.

I say this, because I live it and see it every day.

[inTgr8r]

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense regarding the state of the industry.

I thought I was just turning into a grump old fart.

Re the end links, I believe they changed that.
They (fronts at least ) ship with adjustable end links now.

I would have to change the adjustables I have now due to the above bar mount on the GCs

[Vanne]

Not too sure how its going to work before i see it, but ill let you know once the bars get here

As a side note, i also have GC adjustable end links with the Clubsports.