Driving a ///M car without DSC

[izzy]

Seeing that the ///M coupe does not have DTC which lets the car slide abit before kicking in the traction control, I need to learn how to play with the ///M Coupe with DSC off.

The reason for this is because I was following my mate in a ///M3 and he was bring the tail out in every possible corner, while I was taking the corners normally. I then drove the ///M3 with DTC and also got the tail out and brought the car back inline with easy.

Before I switch of my DSC on the road I need to master driving without in private.

So can anyone give me advice or push me in the right direction on getting info on "HOW to DRIVE with no DSC"

PS does the "Sport" button have any effect on the traction control?

[Bammered]

Best Place to learn how to drive without DSC is at AutoX's.... You will constantly be at the cars handing limits without exceeding 2nd gear, which means any miss hap will not be catostrophic... rain events are the best, dont shy away.

Sport has no effect on the DSC settings, but it can make the slide more difficult to control because your throttle inputs will be sharper....

Heres a vid of me following my bro's ///M in my own car

Heres some slides from my seat.... Tough to catch the true angle of the slide from an unmounted camera because hands tend to compensate....A camera car following or a cam mounted on the fender would be much better!

if you search around the other vids from both our user tags, you doubtless find some dry slides too...

An empty parking lot away from the prying eye of johnny law can also be used to acclimate yourself to swinging the tail on the batmobile....

It should be remembered that the ///M Coupe being shortwheel based, has a tendency to snap into oversteer quicker than the longer wheel based ///M3.... In addition, the fact that you sit practically on the rear wheels means that you are sliding at the wide end of the arc, pretty much where the ///M3's rear seats are....

Once you get used to it in safe surroundings you can have quite alot of fun with this car.... Just dont learn the trade on the street because you can feel like a hero at one slide and then be backwards in the oncoming lane the next slide!

[Dammmittt]

I agree, when the M Coupe kicks the rear end loose, it goes out there really fast. If you learn to anticipate it and control it, it can be a lot of fun. But if you're pushing a corner to fast and it kicks out on you, you could be in big trouble.

One small word of advice, if you do kick the rear end loose, don't slam on the brakes

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Bammered

Sport has no effect on the DSC settings, but it can make the slide more difficult to control because your throttle inputs will be sharper....

Thank you for misunderstanding sport mode and giving me the opportunity to flame you for it. Sport mode is MADE to make driving at the limit of grip and passed it easier. That is the whole point. As a trade off it makes the first half of the throttle jerkier, and the second half much flatter.

In other words it takes more input from your right foot in the second half of the throttle to get the actual throttle moving. This is what you want as you want as precise control as possible. This is what you want/need when your at the edge of losing your grip as too large/quick of an input will send you spinning.

People just THINK its "jerky" because of the first bit of throttle comes on so quick in order to allow this. But once you realize that performance driving is all about near full throttle modulation you'll figure out what it's all about.



If you have started spinning and you have lifted enough to get to the part of the throttle mapping that is "jerky" you have already failed and are going to keep spinning so the jerkiness will have no effect.





for the OP, find an open wet lot and go slide around for a while to learn good car control. Start a spin and recover it going in the original direction as intended. Then come back and do the same when it's dry. Alternatively take a driving improvement school with an instructor.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

I agree, when the M Coupe kicks the rear end loose, it goes out there really fast. If you learn to anticipate it and control it, it can be a lot of fun. But if you're pushing a corner to fast and it kicks out on you, you could be in big trouble.

One small word of advice, if you do kick the rear end loose, don't slam on the brakes

Or lift the throttle.

(<100mph)

[Bammered]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Thank you for misunderstanding sport mode and giving me the opportunity to flame you for it. Sport mode is MADE to make driving at the limit of grip and passed it easier. That is the whole point. As a trade off it makes the first half of the throttle jerkier, and the second half much flatter.

In other words it takes more input from your right foot in the second half of the throttle to get the actual throttle moving. This is what you want as you want as precise control as possible. This is what you want/need when your at the edge of losing your grip as too large/quick of an input will send you spinning.

People just THINK its "jerky" because of the first bit of throttle comes on so quick in order to allow this. But once you realize that performance driving is all about near full throttle modulation you'll figure out what it's all about.



If you have started spinning and you have lifted enough to get to the part of the throttle mapping that is "jerky" you have already failed and are going to keep spinning so the jerkiness will have no effect.





for the OP, find an open wet lot and go slide around for a while to learn good car control. Start a spin and recover it going in the original direction as intended. Then come back and do the same when it's dry. Alternatively take a driving improvement school with an instructor.

Got any proof on throttle mappings to back this up are you just feel like flamming? I know that BOTH times i was at the BMW performance center, the instructors Donnie Isley and Paul Mazzacane said to do the drift circle WITHOUT sportmode and also said that they accomplish their fastest laps WITHOUT sportmode....
But what would they know, Donnie is only a successful open wheel racer and Paul a GT class racer who also owns and tracks a Z06....

In the end to each his own, I track with several ///M owners and the concenus is no sport for fast track driving and that includes drifting....
If you find it better than great for you... But with most experienced drivers the advice is NO sport....

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Bammered

Got any proof on throttle mappings to back this up are you just feel like flamming? I know that BOTH times i was at the BMW performance center, the instructors Donnie Isley and Paul Mazzacane said to do the drift circle WITHOUT sportmode and also said that they accomplish their fastest laps WITHOUT sportmode....
But what would they know, Donnie is only a successful open wheel racer and Paul a GT class racer who also owns and tracks a Z06....

In the end to each his own, I track with several ///M owners and the concenus is no sport for fast track driving and that includes drifting....
If you find it better than great for you... But with most experienced drivers the advice is NO sport....

You can get the proof yourself with an OBDII scanner, or by BMW published charts...

Or by using freaking common sense that tells you if the first 1/3 of the throttle put it at over 50% throttle then the other 2/3rd of the throttle now have a lot less throttle at it's disposal. Think before you mash those keys kthx?


Oh and Nick Heidfeld told me to drive with sport on.

[Bammered]

Originally Posted by O-cha

You can get the proof yourself with an OBDII scanner, or by BMW published charts...

Or by using freaking common sense that tells you if the first 1/3 of the throttle put it at over 50% throttle then the other 2/3rd of the throttle now have a lot less throttle at it's disposal. Think before you mash those keys kthx?

PLenty of thought before i replied... Dont get too upset because established proffessional racers advise against using sport for drifting... But i guess your skill level is above theirs so you dont have to worry about it lol !

But anyways back on subject, If your mid drift and modulating the throttle, and you should happen to pass below the 50% throttle threshold, then would'nt it make the gas pedal jerky again...So to reiterate for the simple minded, You kick the tail out, ride the arc and modulate the throttle, when u come to below or at 50% throttle openeing by your explanation the throttle again becomes jerky, Which by my estimation would make it hard for a beginner to handle....

I guess you have alot of track driving experience? Have you been to the performance delivery center?

[Dammmittt]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Or lift the throttle.

(<100mph)

Or over-correct

p.s. I think you meant >100mph

[F360C]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Thank you for misunderstanding sport mode and giving me the opportunity to flame you for it. Sport mode is MADE to make driving at the limit of grip and passed it easier. That is the whole point. As a trade off it makes the first half of the throttle jerkier, and the second half much flatter.

In other words it takes more input from your right foot in the second half of the throttle to get the actual throttle moving. This is what you want as you want as precise control as possible. This is what you want/need when your at the edge of losing your grip as too large/quick of an input will send you spinning.

People just THINK its "jerky" because of the first bit of throttle comes on so quick in order to allow this. But once you realize that performance driving is all about near full throttle modulation you'll figure out what it's all about.

Well I would like to thank you in return by making a complete ass out of yourself for not having any clue what sport mode does. All sport mode does is make the throttle bodies open quicker per amount of throttle pedal input applied. You don't need this so called "flatter second part of the throttle" to be able to control slides. When driving smooth you are going to be using ALL the throttle pedals travel not just the second half. "Precise control" having a throttle pedal that is jerky in the first half and flat in the second half but instead precise control is having a throttle pedal that is consistant though out the whole range of pedal operation. Where exaclty did you come up with this flawed logic sport mode?

I have linked this thread over to bimmerfest where I am sure some of the more senior members will chime in over here

[thekurgan]

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

Or over-correct

p.s. I think you meant >100mph

Yea.

Originally Posted by Bammered

PLenty of thought before i replied... Dont get too upset because established proffessional racers advise against using sport for drifting... But i guess your skill level is above theirs so you dont have to worry about it lol !

But anyways back on subject, If your mid drift and modulating the throttle, and you should happen to pass below the 50% throttle threshold, then would'nt it make the gas pedal jerky again...So to reiterate for the simple minded, You kick the tail out, ride the arc and modulate the throttle, when u come to below or at 50% throttle openeing by your explanation the throttle again becomes jerky, Which by my estimation would make it hard for a beginner to handle....

I guess you have alot of track driving experience? Have you been to the performance delivery center?

50% was just a random number I picked for an example, it's really the first 10-20% that are considerably quicker.

Are we talking about drifting or oversteering because they are actually different things that just share the back sliding around. OP is not talking about drifting.

If you're oversteering you're not going to go down into that area, period, if you have you messed up and it won't effect you, noob or not. You'll either send yourself in the direction the oversteer was sending you, or send yourself in the direction your countersteer is pointing. With sport off you'll send yourself that way even quicker.

If you're drifting you're going to be using a lot more throttle modulation but again, mostly in the upper range of it, and that sharp jerk at the beginning is going to help aid you start your drift anyway and the deadened upper bound to hold and control it.


No I haven't been to the PDC it's not cost economical, and I have a little track experience.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by F360C

Well I would like to thank you in return by making a complete ass out of yourself for not having any clue what sport mode does. All sport mode does is make the throttle bodies open quicker per amount of throttle pedal input applied. You don't need this so called "flatter second part of the throttle" to be able to control slides. When driving smooth you are going to be using ALL the throttle pedals travel not just the second half. "Precise control" having a throttle pedal that is jerky in the first half and flat in the second half but instead precise control is having a throttle pedal that is consistant though out the whole range of pedal operation. Where exaclty did you come up with this flawed logic sport mode?

I have linked this thread over to bimmerfest where I am sure some of the more senior members will chime in over here

Wow nice edit, and feel free to link it wherever, the way I have described sport mode IS how it works, period. There is no debating a fact.

Originally Posted by F360C

All sport mode does is make the throttle bodies open quicker per amount of throttle pedal input applied.

so you are trying to say that after the first 30% of throttle the rest of it doesn't do anything? You sir are an idiot.

Originally Posted by F360C

You don't need this so called "flatter second part of the throttle" to be able to control slides.

When did I say this? I said:

Originally Posted by O-cha

Sport mode is MADE to make driving at the limit of grip and passed it easier.

This is what you want/need when your at the edge of losing your grip as too large/quick of an input will send you spinning.

Finally:

Originally Posted by F360C

When driving smooth you are going to be using ALL the throttle pedals travel not just the second half.

That's funny, want to take a look at a race cars throttle logs and tell me that again?

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Yea.




50% was just a random number I picked for an example, it's really the first 10-20% that are considerably quicker.

Are we talking about drifting or oversteering because they are actually different things that just share the back sliding around. OP is not talking about drifting.

If you're oversteering you're not going to go down into that area, period, if you have you messed up and it won't effect you, noob or not. You'll either send yourself in the direction the oversteer was sending you, or send yourself in the direction your countersteer is pointing. With sport off you'll send yourself that way even quicker.

If you're drifting you're going to be using a lot more throttle modulation but again, mostly in the upper range of it, and that sharp jerk at the beginning is going to help aid you start your drift anyway and the deadened upper bound to hold and control it.


No I haven't been to the PDC it's not cost economical, and I have a little track experience.

Quite obvious the OP was talking about drifting. Nice retraction though. Don't understand why you think you need to argue with everyone. I thought you knew what you were talking about until you started picking fights...

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Quite obvious the OP was talking about drifting. Nice retraction though. Don't understand why you think you need to argue with everyone. I thought you knew what you were talking about until you started picking fights...

Just because I'm a dick doesn't make me wrong, just means people don't like it when I'm right.

Where do you see a retraction? I said it holds pretty true for drifting as well anyways. the OP is NOT talking about drifting he is talking about purposefully oversteering the car, kicking the tail out temporarily is not drifting, entering a corner sideways and traveling through a corner sideways is. They are slightly different in the cars actions but greatly different in the drivers. Just an FYI so you can get your terms straight.

[Bammered]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Yea.




50% was just a random number I picked for an example, it's really the first 10-20% that are considerably quicker.

Are we talking about drifting or oversteering because they are actually different things that just share the back sliding around. OP is not talking about drifting.

If you're oversteering you're not going to go down into that area, period, if you have you messed up and it won't effect you, noob or not. You'll either send yourself in the direction the oversteer was sending you, or send yourself in the direction your countersteer is pointing. With sport off you'll send yourself that way even quicker.

If you're drifting you're going to be using a lot more throttle modulation but again, mostly in the upper range of it, and that sharp jerk at the beginning is going to help aid you start your drift anyway and the deadened upper bound to hold and control it.


No I haven't been to the PDC it's not cost economical, and I have a little track experience.

I would get solid not random "numbers" before arguing for no reason....

And for someone with "little" track experience, you think you are more experienced and have more credible advice than proffessional drivers who instruct performance drivers for a living? If so thats some serious natural talent lol....

And since when is the PDC delivery not cost effective? the only thing u gotta cover is a flight down... If you cant handle that than maybe a brand new ///M coupe wasnt "cost effective"

Getting back to the OP..... Play with settings and see what works best for you... I for one think that when initiating a drift with little expeirience its better to go from a closed throttle with a more forgiving throttle pedal not one that jumps significantly in the lower throttle inputs...
And because you will most likely brake into the corner off throttle and then step on the gas to initiate the drift, you will be coming from closed throttle which getting back is better to be soft in regular mode as opposed to abrupt in sport.
Despite having alot of power and light weight, our cars cannot just be stabbed on turn in for a good drift... they actually like to be set up and chucked in with a light scandanavian flick....

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Bammered

I would get solid not random "numbers" before arguing for no reason....

You really are dense, it's an example that no matter what the numbers chosen so long as they are higher then normal (which should be obvious to even the most pee brained since its "jerky") has the same result. In order for the beginning of the throttle to be jerky the ending has to be smoother, again, which is good for track driving.

Since you seem to value the opinion of "professional drivers" so much, go ask one how often they gently press the throttle after braking and turning in

Originally Posted by O-cha

Or by using freaking common sense that tells you if the first 1/3 of the throttle put it at over 50% throttle then the other 2/3rd of the throttle now have a lot less throttle at it's disposal. Think before you mash those keys kthx?

[Bammered]

Originally Posted by O-cha

You really are dense, it's an example that no matter what the numbers chosen so long as they are higher then normal (which should be obvious to even the most pee brained since its "jerky") has the same result. In order for the beginning of the throttle to be jerky the ending has to be smoother, again, which is good for track driving.

Since you seem to value the opinion of "professional drivers" so much, go ask one how often they gently press the throttle after braking and turning in

Well i would say just about everytime there on the track in the rain but who would think of that?

In the end I dont have to result to putting down fellow board members to make myself "feel" better... But some people have nothing else to do... Oh well

I will stop ruining the OP's thread with hopeless trolling and dribble... Heres to anyone that can add something usefull to the OP and not just pick forum fights because they were'nt hugged enough!

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Bammered

Well i would say just about everytime there on the track in the rain but who would think of that?

You don't use the exception to disprove the rule...

[Dammmittt]

Reading this makes me want to

[F360C]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Since you seem to value the opinion of "professional drivers" so much, go ask one how often they gently press the throttle after braking and turning in

Well I was going to discount all of the points you have made but judging by this response here it is clear you have little time on the track so I am just going to leave it with that.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by F360C

Well I was going to discount all of the points you have made but judging by this response here it is clear you have little time on the track so I am just going to leave it with that.

you're going to try and discount well established points? This I would love to hear.

I guess you're the type that pushes the throttle after turning in and lets off and pushes it only pushing himself off line over and over, because thats the only real way the "jerkiness" is going to be a hindrance.


I can see you have way more experience though, so much so that they don't even make you wear a helmet, or maybe there's another reason for that.