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      02-04-2017, 05:36 PM   #1
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Supersprint Headers VS Euro Headers

Superspint Stepped headers V1 are considered the one that make the most HP for our cars. Does anybody know if it worths making the transition from Euro Headers to SSSV1 Headers?

My mechanic mentions that Euro headers is the only thing I will need for my car and that the gains will be very small if I go to SSV1 stepped headers. Other threads mention a lot of HP gains but from US headers.

Also can SSV1 stepped headers work with stock mufflers?

What is the expected HP gain with the SSV1 stepped headers with a custom tune?
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      02-05-2017, 12:56 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
Superspint Stepped headers V1 are considered the one that make the most HP for our cars. Does anybody know if it worths making the transition from Euro Headers to SSSV1 Headers?

My mechanic mentions that Euro headers is the only thing I will need for my car and that the gains will be very small if I go to SSV1 stepped headers. Other threads mention a lot of HP gains but from US headers.

Also can SSV1 stepped headers work with stock mufflers?

What is the expected HP gain with the SSV1 stepped headers with a custom tune?
Dionysis, your mechanic is right. From my experience the gains switching from Euro to SSV1 were low compared to the money spend and taking into account that you will need also to tune your ecu accordigly in order to gain the expected Hp.
If I had to do it all over again it will be the last modification in my to do list. It really worths doing it only if you had to switch off from US headers...

The real restriction point in Euro cars is the muffler/ back boxes as our header is a piece of art. When switching to rpi and dyno the car the gains recorded were almost 10hp!!!!
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      02-05-2017, 02:54 AM   #3
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It depends on whether you have an alpha-n tune (and have access to a dyno tuner), or if you plan to stick with a MAF-based tune. It also depends on how much money you're spending.

It's true that SS V1 makes good power over stock - somewhere around 35 hp on Euro, and 50 hp on North American cars according to vendor dynos. With FI the gains are higher. My G-Power supercharger setup is rated at 450 crank hp on a Euro car, but it's putting out closer to 500 hp with SS V1 headers/s-pipe based on my dynos on a 120k mile car.

ESS wouldn't tune my car for stepped headers, so if you want to go FI / carbon airbox, you will need a custom tune to extract the power.

Paying full MSRP for new SS V1 stepped headers + catted s-pipe + dyno tune, when you already have the Euro setup, isn't worth the extra power IMHO unless you're trying to squeeze everything out of this motor.

Your money would be better spent on an aftermarket s-pipe... either Supersprint catted, used DKF, or some sort of custom straight pipes with resonators or cats welded in. Your Euro s-pipe is worth decent money.
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      02-05-2017, 09:29 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
... ESS wouldn't tune my car for stepped headers ...
Can confirm, I just asked them about this a couple days ago. Their response:

"You actually can't run stepped headers on the MSS70. The O2 feedback is completely whack on those."

Of course I realized this after buying their tune and some stepped headers
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      02-05-2017, 04:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikitas_Z4mcoupe View Post
Dionysis, your mechanic is right. From my experience the gains switching from Euro to SSV1 were low compared to the money spend and taking into account that you will need also to tune your ecu accordigly in order to gain the expected Hp.
If I had to do it all over again it will be the last modification in my to do list. It really worths doing it only if you had to switch off from US headers...

The real restriction point in Euro cars is the muffler/ back boxes as our header is a piece of art. When switching to rpi and dyno the car the gains recorded were almost 10hp!!!!
Nikita thank you my friend once again for your feedback and your valuable opinion. Your guidance outside the forum and here is very important for me.

The reason I have second thoughts about what you and my mechanic told me, is the email I received from the the tuner, I plan to tune the car. Here is our discussion:

Me: What gains on Horsepower should I expect after the tuning?
Answer: They make 280 stock on our dyno. With intake and tuning they are about 320. With a free flowing exhaust they are in the 330 range. With headers and a very free flowing exhaust they are 340-350.

Me: From your experience can you please suggest me any headers and exhaust that produce these numbers? My mechanic say due the fact that the European cars have more free flow headers the change of them will not do any significant difference.
Answer: If it is for a street car the Euro are ok. If sound is not an issue, our headers or the SS stepped v1 will flow more air and thus do make more power. Quite a bit more in fact.

So I was thinking now that I will do the csl airbox and the tune to put also the headers to avoid the future tuning again if it makes also sense from power gain perspective and you don't get 5 hp. What do you think it worths the money?
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      02-05-2017, 05:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
It depends on whether you have an alpha-n tune (and have access to a dyno tuner), or if you plan to stick with a MAF-based tune. It also depends on how much money you're spending.

It's true that SS V1 makes good power over stock - somewhere around 35 hp on Euro, and 50 hp on North American cars according to vendor dynos. With FI the gains are higher. My G-Power supercharger setup is rated at 450 crank hp on a Euro car, but it's putting out closer to 500 hp with SS V1 headers/s-pipe based on my dynos on a 120k mile car.

ESS wouldn't tune my car for stepped headers, so if you want to go FI / carbon airbox, you will need a custom tune to extract the power.

Paying full MSRP for new SS V1 stepped headers + catted s-pipe + dyno tune, when you already have the Euro setup, isn't worth the extra power IMHO unless you're trying to squeeze everything out of this motor.

Your money would be better spent on an aftermarket s-pipe... either Supersprint catted, used DKF, or some sort of custom straight pipes with resonators or cats welded in. Your Euro s-pipe is worth decent money.
PokeyBritches thank you for your detailed answer. It is important to clarify that I have planed to install a CSL Airbox and make a Custom Alpha N tune.
I have seen some dyno graphs after installing the SSV1 headers and they power gains are important. With the tune and the airbox do you think is good time to put the headers ?

The get 35 hp that you mention from the SSV1 versus the Euro headers, requires to change also the s-pipe and the x-pipe and the mufflers?

Can you install the SSV1 headers and keep the rest stock s-pipe and x-pipe?

ESS will not be the tuner of my car but thank you for the info it is another reason to look elsewhere.
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      02-06-2017, 02:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
PokeyBritches thank you for your detailed answer. It is important to clarify that I have planed to install a CSL Airbox and make a Custom Alpha N tune.
Not a problem! Will this be a canned tune, or a dyno tune? By "custom", I assume you mean it will be tuned on the dyno, which is the only way to get the most out of the headers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
I have seen some dyno graphs after installing the SSV1 headers and they power gains are important. With the tune and the airbox do you think is good time to put the headers ?
You must get a tune AFTER the headers have been installed. The tune must be optimized for the headers. On a car running an alpha-n tune, any changes in hardware require a retune.

The O2 sensors are in different locations from stock, and this affects readings which are used to control fuel trims. When I added stepped headers to my ESS supercharged car, I actually lost a bit of top-end power because the tune was optimized for US-spec headers. Of course with a retune, I gained all the power back and then some. A Z4M can absolutely be tuned to run stepped headers.

ESS makes a great product and their tuning is spot on for US and Euro headers. However, when deviating outside the kit's specs, ESS doesn't like to support customization of the tune to accommodate things like stepped headers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
The get 35 hp that you mention from the SSV1 versus the Euro headers, requires to change also the s-pipe and the x-pipe and the mufflers?
The 35 hp I mentioned was from back to back dynos including the SS V1 catted s-pipe vs OEM Euro headers and s-pipe. They were from a vendor which sold Supersprint products, so keep that in mind. I'm certain there are solid gains with the V1 setup over Euro, but no one really knows the exact amount. 35 hp was what one vendor achieved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
Can you install the SSV1 headers and keep the rest stock s-pipe and x-pipe?
Yes. The stock x-pipe and exhaust are fine. You must change out the s-pipe though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
ESS will not be the tuner of my car but thank you for the info it is another reason to look elsewhere.
Again, they make a great kit, but don't seem too interested in deviating far from the standard specs.
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      02-06-2017, 02:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
Can confirm, I just asked them about this a couple days ago. Their response:

"You actually can't run stepped headers on the MSS70. The O2 feedback is completely whack on those."

Of course I realized this after buying their tune and some stepped headers
I have two supercharged Z4M's running stepped headers (SS V1 and CPI), so Z4M's can definitely be tuned for them. I know stepped headers are Supersprint's premier S54 product, Evolve is a Supersprint distributor, and Evolve is ESS's competitor. It's a business decision... they either don't want to tune for them because they pay someone else to do their tuning and they can't tune for them in house; or they can tune for them but don't want to support their competitor's product.

ESS is correct about the O2 sensor location. It just requires additional tuning. The power gains are very real.

Another option is the CPI stepped headers, which have given me great results.
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      02-06-2017, 05:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
I have two supercharged Z4M's running stepped headers (SS V1 and CPI), so Z4M's can definitely be tuned for them. I know stepped headers are Supersprint's premier S54 product, Evolve is a Supersprint distributor, and Evolve is ESS's competitor. It's a business decision... they either don't want to tune for them because they pay someone else to do their tuning and they can't tune for them in house; or they can tune for them but don't want to support their competitor's product.

ESS is correct about the O2 sensor location. It just requires additional tuning. The power gains are very real.

Another option is the CPI stepped headers, which have given me great results.
I have euro headers with US spipe that have the cats emptied and stock xpipe and rogue el diablo mufflers.

Do you think i can gain power by replacing the S pipe, xpipe and muffler to a 3 inch setup up from 2.25 stock even with euro headers ?
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      02-06-2017, 07:03 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
I have euro headers with US spipe that have the cats emptied and stock xpipe and rogue el diablo mufflers.

Do you think i can gain power by replacing the S pipe, xpipe and muffler to a 3 inch setup up from 2.25 stock even with euro headers ?
I would cut out what's left of the cats, weld in resonators, and call it a day.
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      02-06-2017, 08:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
I have two supercharged Z4M's running stepped headers (SS V1 and CPI), so Z4M's can definitely be tuned for them. I know stepped headers are Supersprint's premier S54 product, Evolve is a Supersprint distributor, and Evolve is ESS's competitor. It's a business decision... they either don't want to tune for them because they pay someone else to do their tuning and they can't tune for them in house; or they can tune for them but don't want to support their competitor's product.

ESS is correct about the O2 sensor location. It just requires additional tuning. The power gains are very real.

Another option is the CPI stepped headers, which have given me great results.
Interesting. I actually did pick up a set of the CPI headers, installing them in a couple days. I was googling them like a madman, and your past posts about them were helpful

I'm not sure what to think about ESS at this point, both from what they say about stepped headers, and also 'sport button memory' which they also said wasn't available on this platform. Other tuners don't seem to have a problem getting those things done. Even if I can find a way around the CEL, I have a sinking feeling that the ESS tune won't be making as much power in this application as some of the TTFS examples I've seen, as it's optimized for euro headers

Sorry for theadjacking OP I'll shut up now
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      02-06-2017, 01:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
I would cut out what's left of the cats, weld in resonators, and call it a day.
Why ?
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      02-06-2017, 04:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
Not a problem! Will this be a canned tune, or a dyno tune? By "custom", I assume you mean it will be tuned on the dyno, which is the only way to get the most out of the headers.
This will be a tune done wit a dyno. We send then the data to the tuner he makes the changes and then send the new tune the next day. It will not be live.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post

The O2 sensors are in different locations from stock, and this affects readings which are used to control fuel trims. When I added stepped headers to my ESS supercharged car, I actually lost a bit of top-end power because the tune was optimized for US-spec headers.
What happens if you delete the O2 Sensors? Since the website of the tuner says he can delete the O2 sensors.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
Yes. The stock x-pipe and exhaust are fine. You must change out the s-pipe though.
Damn that S-pipes with cats of Superspint are expensive Is there any alternative to them?

Also how you differentiate SSV1 from not SSV2? Because on their website I can not understand which is the right one...
Do you know also if those headers are the same also for the M3's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
I have two supercharged Z4M's running stepped headers (SS V1 and CPI)
If I haven't read your other post I would think you are joking.
Now the only thing I have to say is

Thank you again for you detailed answer.

Last edited by FD3S; 02-06-2017 at 05:36 PM..
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      02-07-2017, 08:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
Interesting. I actually did pick up a set of the CPI headers, installing them in a couple days. I was googling them like a madman, and your past posts about them were helpful

I'm not sure what to think about ESS at this point, both from what they say about stepped headers, and also 'sport button memory' which they also said wasn't available on this platform. Other tuners don't seem to have a problem getting those things done. Even if I can find a way around the CEL, I have a sinking feeling that the ESS tune won't be making as much power in this application as some of the TTFS examples I've seen, as it's optimized for euro headers

Sorry for theadjacking OP I'll shut up now
This is good to know as I'm still learning about this car
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      02-08-2017, 01:43 PM   #15
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I'm running Euro headers, DKF S-pipe, OEM X-pipe, and RDSport exhaust. All the O2 connections as well as the EGT were EXTREMELY simple due to DKF making it simple for anyone to do it (shoutout to Pokeybritches for the DKF!). However, I do have a CEL which is no big deal (sometimes it doesn't let me sleep at night, why lie). My point is; consider leaving the SS headers out of the picture if it doesn't give you much a HP gain over the Euro headers, it's not worth the headache IMO. As for tuning, I'll probably go with TTFS
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      02-08-2017, 03:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RossBMWZseries View Post
I'm running Euro headers, DKF S-pipe, OEM X-pipe, and RDSport exhaust. All the O2 connections as well as the EGT were EXTREMELY simple due to DKF making it simple for anyone to do it (shoutout to Pokeybritches for the DKF!). However, I do have a CEL which is no big deal (sometimes it doesn't let me sleep at night, why lie). My point is; consider leaving the SS headers out of the picture if it doesn't give you much a HP gain over the Euro headers, it's not worth the headache IMO. As for tuning, I'll probably go with TTFS

Ross thanks for your answer. Do you have done a dyno with your setup?
One silly question what is CEL?
I have never read on the forum anyone to go with TTFS with his Z4M. Do you have any feedback about TTFS?

Thank you again.
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      02-08-2017, 04:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
Also how you differentiate SSV1 from not SSV2? Because on their website I can not understand which is the right one...
The V2 stepped headers have a 2-bolt flange at the end so that they will bolt to a stock section 1.

The V1 header is slip-fit over the SuperSprint section 1 (no flange at all).
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      02-08-2017, 04:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
Superspint Stepped headers V1 are considered the one that make the most HP for our cars. Does anybody know if it worths making the transition from Euro Headers to SSSV1 Headers?
I have SSV1 and SS section 1 with "sport cats". I have this mated to the stock X-pipe and stock mufflers, and paired with the Evolve tune. I noticed a definite large gain in power compared to US-spec exhaust manifolds and section 1. I can't compare with the euro-spec headers, but I did spend a lot of time studying various dyno charts, especially here:

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=785645

You can see that SSV1 makes significantly more power in the top end when compared to the euro headers.

There are also a lot of people on this forum saying that the SSV1 headers don't fit on the Z4M. Mine fit fine (coupled with new motor mounts), but do vibrate against the transmission cross member very slightly under certain conditions.
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      02-08-2017, 05:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFromTucson View Post
The V2 stepped headers have a 2-bolt flange at the end so that they will bolt to a stock section 1.

The V1 header is slip-fit over the SuperSprint section 1 (no flange at all).
According to the Superspint website the below two are the available headers for the Z4M:

1) http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/bmw...-drive.aspx#!/

2) http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/bmw...-drive.aspx#!/

Do you know which is the stepped SSV1?

Thank you for your help.
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      02-08-2017, 05:37 PM   #20
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I have the #043901 SS V2 regular (Non-stepped) headers in storage right now waiting to be installed with Euro cats once Spring comes around... Will revise my Epic Alpha N tune to run the catless headers.

Last edited by EMKOOP; 02-08-2017 at 05:51 PM..
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      02-08-2017, 05:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD3S View Post
According to the Superspint website the below two are the available headers for the Z4M:

1) http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/bmw...-drive.aspx#!/

2) http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/bmw...-drive.aspx#!/

Do you know which is the stepped SSV1?

Thank you for your help.
If you take a look at the headers themselves you can definitely see the "STEPPED" design (Tubing diameter growing as they lead to section 1 connection).

#044001 is V1 STEPPED
#787501 is V1 REGULAR

All V1 headers will need to be connected to SS section 1s.

V2 headers has flanges to mate up to US/Euro OE section 1s.

#044901 is V2 STEPPED
#043901 is V2 REGULAR

Last edited by EMKOOP; 02-08-2017 at 05:51 PM..
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      02-08-2017, 05:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMKOOP View Post
I have the SS V2 regular (Non-stepped) headers in storage right now waiting to be installed with Euro cats once Spring comes around... Will revise my Epic Alpha N tune to run the catless headers.
That would be very interesting to have some feedback.
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