Opinions on 3.0si vs M (both Roadsters)

[HEY32G]

I've driven both and was completely blown away by the Z4M, but the 3.0si was REALLY nice as well. I'm really struggling with the fact that I could get a practically brand new 3.0si for the same price as a 25k to 30k M.

Personally I really like the Steptronic shifting. I have a manual right now and I'm kind of tired of the clutch, but the M is such a fantastic car.

I know it's my preference, but any opinions would help.

Thanks.

[krnnerdboy]

I was actually cross shopping them as well and well I couldn't be happier with my decision. the exclusivity, the all out performance, and future collectibility make up for the stiff ride. They are both great cars and if you can put up with the manual then get the M for the marginal difference in price...but on the other side maintenance is pretty high on the M's and a daily auto is necessary for me as well once again you called it, it's your call

[HEY32G]

Originally Posted by krnnerdboy

I was actually cross shopping them as well and well I couldn't be happier with my decision. the exclusivity, the all out performance, and future collectibility make up for the stiff ride. They are both great cars and if you can put up with the manual then get the M for the marginal difference in price...but on the other side maintenance is pretty high on the M's and a daily auto is necessary for me as well once again you called it, it's your call

Could you elaborate on this, please?

[chickdr]

Originally Posted by GH32335i

Could you elaborate on this, please?

Parts for M cars are higher. The brake rotors are about twice the cost of si rotors(they are off the CSL) the clutch is more expensive. The M needs valve adjustments(the si does not). I understand your dilemma. I liked the si at first, but couldn't accept the steering fell(too light, uncommunicative) so tried an M. That was the ticket. If the si had the steering feel of the M I would have probably bought it.

[chickdr]

Originally Posted by GatorBlue371

just curious but how much money do you think that is per year?


Or ... how much have you spent on upkeep / how long have you had your car

Mine(as well as most others) are still under the 4yr/50k service included warranty so I do not know. I bought my 06 in April and have put less than 1K miles on it so far. I don't expect to spend much. What I suggest is to too ask a dealer what the major services cost on the ///M and how much parts like the front rotors and clutch cost to replace. You can also look up part prices on realOEM.com.

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by GatorBlue371

just curious but how much money do you think that is per year?

As he pointed out, no one's had to spend anything yet - I've got 2 years/35k miles of warranty left. My expectation, based on studying E46 M3 maintenance patterns and my expected mileage (7500 miles/year, same as now), is that I'll set aside $1500/year for maintenance, $1200 every 2 years for tires. What I do is let that money accumulate in a "slush fund" until I need to spend it on the car.

[leeman]

I have owned both the SI and now the "M". The M will steal your heart. Don't get me wrong the SI is a great car but the M offers so much more in handling, power and yes comfort. In my opinion the M rides smoother and is more solid on bumpy roads. I suspect it's because the M has auxillary springs. The steering is solid and dead accurate (no drift or bump steer). The manual trans is more precise and just as easy to shift. The rear diif lock found on high end exotics (an option in a 911 turbo) is standard. This means without traction control on the car goes straight with little to no side slip and hold itself well in turns with the DSC disabled. This is especially great as your skill level on winding roads increases. The braking power on the M is significant. I describe them as race car brakes that are designed not to fade from heat. that's an $8000 option in a Porsche. the M is an engineering marvel. I can provide you with the entire breakdown of the M versus the SI if you interested.

[leeman]

Z4 M Roadster
Improvements over 3.0 SI

Exterior

o Pronounced front grill new fascia - bumper, spoiler, grille framing - that makes a statement both esthetic and functional.
o The traditional BMW “kidney” grilles are set deeper into their openings. Their vertical slats are black,
o High-intensity headlight cleaning system.
o Hood includes two longitudinal “precision lines” not present on regular Z4s.
o Rear Diffuser between tailpipes. Provides aerodynamic benefit by reducing lift at high speeds.
o Dual exhaust (quad tips)
o Spoke Sport Wheels. Distinct styling and allow more air to brakes.
o Chrome door sill plate with M logo ( looks cool when door is open)
o Black leather wrapped roll bars
o M badging on sides, rear and wheels of car.


Performance Enhancements

o 330 HP iron block engine (75 more HP than SI) (International engine of the year award 5 years running) Iron block allowed BMW to achieve larger bore to 3.2 liters while providing superior strength.
o Upgraded tachometer with variable red line. Changes rev limiter as car warms up.
0-60 4.8 vs. 5.6 for SI ¼ mile speed 13.4 vs 14.2 SI
o Upgraded transmission and performance shifting
o High performance tuned suspension upgrades include upper and lower control arm configuration, mounted ball joints to struts for better turn in and different roll bar positioning contributes to better handling and ride quality.
o Larger and stronger rear sub frame.
o Hydraulic steering – Tighter steering tolerances and better feel by the removal of speed sensitive steering.
o Cross drilled, larger diameter ventilated brakes. Better stopping distance and added fade resistance. (Very close to race car breaking)
o High performance Tires (non-run flat)
o Front Stance is wider than regular Z4 for better handling.
o Wider tires.
o Rear lock differential for better rear wheel traction. (found only on high end sports cars)






Interior

o Special leather wrapped M steering wheel (thicker)
o Special leather wrapped M stick shift with lighted shift pattern and “M” logo being displayed
o Leather Throughout cockpit including console, door panels, window frame, sun visor and Roll bar covers. (extended leather option)
o Special “M” seats with side bolsters
o M embossed seats with upgraded Nappa leather
o Aluminum color gauge cluster with white backlit display.
o M badging throughout interior
o Upgraded stereo

[chickdr]

Originally Posted by leeman

I have owned both the SI and now the "M". The M will steal your heart. Don't get me wrong the SI is a great car but the M offers so much more in handling, power and yes comfort. In my opinion the M rides smoother and is more solid on bumpy roads. I suspect it's because the M has auxillary springs. The steering is solid and dead accurate (no drift or bump steer). The manual trans is more precise and just as easy to shift. The rear diif lock found on high end exotics (an option in a 911 turbo) is standard. This means without traction control on the car goes straight with little to no side slip and hold itself well in turns with the DSC disabled. This is especially great as your skill level on winding roads increases. The braking power on the M is significant. I describe them as race car brakes that are designed not to fade from heat. that's an $8000 option in a Porsche. the M is an engineering marvel. I can provide you with the entire breakdown of the M versus the SI if you interested.

As and M owner I love your enthusiasm and share it! I would say a couple of things about your info though. The Z4M's brakes are excellent, but not quite equivalent to the carbon ceramic units you mention as an $8K P-car option. I also find the M lacks the control in bumpy curves I had in my 02 Boxster 2.7. I have some bump steer issues in mine(maybe its the OEM Conti tires).

You also mentioned some extra features the Z4M has over the si. The leather roll hoops are an optional feature(extended leather) as well as the upgraded stereo(premium package). I don't think the tires are wider either if you compare a sport package si to the Z4M.

[mhughett]

Originally Posted by leeman

Z4 M Roadster
Improvements over 3.0 SI

Exterior

o Pronounced front grill new fascia - bumper, spoiler, grille framing - that makes a statement both esthetic and functional.
o The traditional BMW “kidney” grilles are set deeper into their openings. Their vertical slats are black,
o High-intensity headlight cleaning system.
o Hood includes two longitudinal “precision lines” not present on regular Z4s.
o Rear Diffuser between tailpipes. Provides aerodynamic benefit by reducing lift at high speeds.
o Dual exhaust (quad tips)
o Spoke Sport Wheels. Distinct styling and allow more air to brakes.
o Chrome door sill plate with M logo ( looks cool when door is open)
o Black leather wrapped roll bars
o M badging on sides, rear and wheels of car.


Performance Enhancements

o 330 HP iron block engine (75 more HP than SI) (International engine of the year award 5 years running) Iron block allowed BMW to achieve larger bore to 3.2 liters while providing superior strength.
o Upgraded tachometer with variable red line. Changes rev limiter as car warms up.
0-60 4.8 vs. 5.6 for SI ¼ mile speed 13.4 vs 14.2 SI
o Upgraded transmission and performance shifting
o High performance tuned suspension upgrades include upper and lower control arm configuration, mounted ball joints to struts for better turn in and different roll bar positioning contributes to better handling and ride quality.
o Larger and stronger rear sub frame.
o Hydraulic steering – Tighter steering tolerances and better feel by the removal of speed sensitive steering.
o Cross drilled, larger diameter ventilated brakes. Better stopping distance and added fade resistance. (Very close to race car breaking)
o High performance Tires (non-run flat)
o Front Stance is wider than regular Z4 for better handling.
o Wider tires.
o Rear lock differential for better rear wheel traction. (found only on high end sports cars)






Interior

o Special leather wrapped M steering wheel (thicker)
o Special leather wrapped M stick shift with lighted shift pattern and “M” logo being displayed
o Leather Throughout cockpit including console, door panels, window frame, sun visor and Roll bar covers. (extended leather option)
o Special “M” seats with side bolsters
o M embossed seats with upgraded Nappa leather
o Aluminum color gauge cluster with white backlit display.
o M badging throughout interior
o Upgraded stereo

Seems like everyone is pushing towards the M cars. I drove the M version first and actually preferred the 3.0si for many reasons. Here are just a few of them:
1. Cost of the M was about $4k-$8k more than mine. I bought mine less than 4 months ago with less than 5k miles for $29k.
2. Cost of maintenance, specifically, the valve adjustments are hideously expensive. Most likely, none of the Z4-M owners have had to pay for one yet but this will hurt.
3. Common replacement parts are much higher (2X to 3X) on the M. Wait until the high mileage cars need suspension parts, brakes, water pumps, etc.
4. Trunk space--the M hump where the battery and mobility kit reside takes up valuable space. I could not get my golf clubs AND my push cart in the back with the M.
5. Sport button on the M is almost worthless. Does nothing for the steering and makes the accelerator so sensitive that you can't even drive it around town.
6. Steering wheel on the M is TOO fat. I agree that the one on the 3.0si is a little thin. My 530i sport pkg wheel is about perfect.
7. My insurance guy quoted me rates that were more than double for the M vs. my 3.0si.
8. The wheels and tires are the exact same size on my 3.0si as they are on the M. As for the non-runflat argument, I can (and will shortly) rectify that issue.
9. When I push the sport button on my car, the steering feel is pretty decent and the car moves as fast as traffic around here will allow. I have never felt I needed more power.
10. Fuel economy on the 3.0si is a good 30% better than the M.

Don't get me wrong, I think the M is a wonderful car as well. It's just that a lot of the perceived "benefits" noted above are more cosmetic than functional. While the M takes performance to a higher level, I don't feel like I'm that far behind in either looks or performance. You can be happy with either one--it just depends on how high up the performance scale you feel you need to be.

[GP20]

Originally Posted by mhughett

5. Sport button on the M is almost worthless. Does nothing for the steering and makes the accelerator so sensitive that you can't even drive it around town.

It does nothing for the steering because it doesn't need to do anything to the steering. The hydraulically assisted power steering is 10x better than the non-M's. And I'm saying this as someone who's logged 40k miles in my previous non-M Z4's and 40k miles in my Z4M's.

7. My insurance guy quoted me rates that were more than double for the M vs. my 3.0si.

Just checked with my insurance company out of curiosity. My M costs a whopping $73 to insure than a 3.0si of the same year.

8. The wheels and tires are the exact same size on my 3.0si as they are on the M.

No, they're not.

10. Fuel economy on the 3.0si is a good 30% better than the M.

Again, this is moot point. The variable service interval is directly calculated by fuel consumtion. Non-M Z4 owners get better gas mileage but they end up paying for service-2 out of pocket. M owners spend more on gas but we reach service-2 within the 50k mile warranty period (unless you don't drive the car much during the initial 4 years, of course).

[mhughett]

GP20--I can't argue with you about the hydraulic steering being better in the M. And I guess insurance rates are different everywhere so I won't take exception with your point there. I can only speak from my area. However, your other points are either factually incorrect or don't make any sense.

1. The stock sizes for both the M and the 3.0si sport are both 225/40 18 in front and 255/35 18 in back. If you don't think so, look it up.
2. Why is fuel economy a moot point? You went off about the service interval but that has nothing to do with fuel economy. Yes, I know we both get maintenance costs paid during the 4 yr/50k period but my point was strictly the gas mileage for each car. The M is rated at 16/22 while the 3.0si (manual) is rated at 22/30.

[vachss]

Originally Posted by mhughett

1. The stock sizes for both the M and the 3.0si sport are both 225/40 18 in front and 255/35 18 in back. If you don't think so, look it up.

I'm pretty sure the Z4M uses 18x9" wheels in back vs. the 18x8.5's on the non-M, also the offsets are significantly different. Tire section widths are indeed the same, but the rims and, I believe, the aspect ratios, are different.


I'm also one of those folks who chose the non-M after driving the M. While I actually prefer the steering and ride of the non-M, the performance difference is not at all subtle. The Z4M is a true beast and you'll know it the instant you stomp on the pedal. I believe the M is much more of a rush to drive, but for a general purpose car - used for commuting on less than perfect roads and occasionally in traffic - that isn't necessarily a good thing.

If I was getting a weekend toy, however, I think the M is clearly superior. You do get a lot for that extra $6-10K (wheels, suspension, differential, motor) - mods that would cost a lot more if you were to try to get an Si up to this performance level.

[GP20]

Originally Posted by mhughett

GP20--I can't argue with you about the hydraulic steering being better in the M. And I guess insurance rates are different everywhere so I won't take exception with your point there. I can only speak from my area. However, your other points are either factually incorrect or don't make any sense.

1. The stock sizes for both the M and the 3.0si sport are both 225/40 18 in front and 255/35 18 in back. If you don't think so, look it up.
2. Why is fuel economy a moot point? You went off about the service interval but that has nothing to do with fuel economy. Yes, I know we both get maintenance costs paid during the 4 yr/50k period but my point was strictly the gas mileage for each car. The M is rated at 16/22 while the 3.0si (manual) is rated at 22/30.

The service interval has EVERYTHING to do with gas consumption. How do you think the computer calculates the service interval? Via the amount of gas consumed. The more gas you go through the more quickly the service meter counts down to zero. You get better gas mileage in the non-M, but you end up paying service 2 (the pricy one) out of pocket whereas M owners are able to have service 2 squeezed into the 50k mile free maintenance warranty period.

And M has 225/45/18 & 255/40/18 tires mounted on 18x8 & 18x9 rims. Non-M's have 225/40/18 & 255/35/18 mounted on 18x8 & 18x8.5 rims. If you don't think so, look it up.

[mhughett]

Ok GP20, you got me on the tire size, although I'm not sure why BMW used the same width with TALLER aspect ratio's on the M. However, fuel economy is fuel economy. Maintenance intervals are a different issue altogether that has nothing to do with gas mileage. Yes, I understand that mileage affects how the computer calculates the service interval. But that still has nothing to do with mileage. Enough said, this issue has been beat to death.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by mhughett

Ok GP20, you got me on the tire size, although I'm not sure why BMW used the same width with TALLER aspect ratio's on the M. However, fuel economy is fuel economy. Maintenance intervals are a different issue altogether that has nothing to do with gas mileage. Yes, I understand that mileage affects how the computer calculates the service interval. But that still has nothing to do with mileage. Enough said, this issue has been beat to death.

I think you're missing the point. All GP20 is saying is yes you pay more for gas due to lower MPG, but you get 2nd service interval for free because of the same reason. Someone may do the math there, but I think the idea is they will cancel out each other.

[vachss]

Originally Posted by erhanh

Someone may do the math there, but I think the idea is they will cancel out each other.

OK. Assume Z4M averages 24 mpg and non-M gets 30 (both slightly high, but easier to do the numbers in my head). With $3/gallon gas this means the M gets about 8 miles/dollar while the non-M gets 10. So every 50K miles the M pays about $1250 more for gas than the non-M. Since I plan to take my non-M to an independent mechanic for inspection 2 I suspect it'll cost me a damn sight less than $1250.

Anyway, these costs are pretty minor. A bigger deal to me with mileage is just the convenience of being able to get 400 miles on a tank while still driving hard up the canyon to work every day and not shaking my car and kidneys to death on the rough bits. Would I enjoy the heck out of an M Coupe - sure thing, but I'd probably still choose my non-M for a daily driver.

[mhughett]

Originally Posted by erhanh

I think you're missing the point. All GP20 is saying is yes you pay more for gas due to lower MPG, but you get 2nd service interval for free because of the same reason. Someone may do the math there, but I think the idea is they will cancel out each other.

So you are assuming that the services for the M cars are more frequent than the non M cars? I thought all of the BMW's had scheduled service every 15k miles or so. Yes, I know the interval uses fuel consumption to determine the correct interval for each car. But I think the BMW engineers are smart enough to figure out how to modify the service intervals of each of their cars to do that and still have them all come in around every 15k. They don't just use the same fuel consumption calculation and let some cars like the X5, 7 and other V-8's come in at 10k while the I-6's come in at 15k. Let's give them a little more credit than that.

[leeman]

I thank you for your opinion on both cars. I apologize for my list not specifying extended leather option. When I made the list up in 2008 I did it to depict the difference between the SI I had at the time and the M I was contemplating. I was trying to justify the $10K premium on the M. I was convinced at the time and still feel strongly that the additional price I paid was worth it. I also did not mention that I had the sport package on the SI and that is why I feel the M rides better. I never drove a standard suspension SI. I am sure that is much smoother.I was unaware of the additional cost for things like valve adjustments and new underpinnings. I guess that comes with the territory when you buy a beast like this. Good luck on your decision; not an easy one for sure.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by mhughett

So you are assuming that the services for the M cars are more frequent than the non M cars? I thought all of the BMW's had scheduled service every 15k miles or so. Yes, I know the interval uses fuel consumption to determine the correct interval for each car. But I think the BMW engineers are smart enough to figure out how to modify the service intervals of each of their cars to do that and still have them all come in around every 15k. They don't just use the same fuel consumption calculation and let some cars like the X5, 7 and other V-8's come in at 10k while the I-6's come in at 15k. Let's give them a little more credit than that.

Service interval on the Z4M and Z4 are both based on the same criteria - 2500 litres of fuel consumed. This is also the case for the E46 cars, but is somewhat different for current cars such as the E90 with CBS (condition based servicing).