DSC OFF

[Shipkiller]

From the book:

"The most important thing about the chassis of the Z4 is the high degree of precision that has been achieved. The car is nearly neutral in cornering; meaning a lack of rotation (yawing) in corners. The intervention of the DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) system comes in very late since the DSC is really a yaw control system. If it is needed at all, DSC had been designed to come in very smoothly.

For more aggressive drives, the DSC system has a special DTC (Dynamic Traction Control) mode. BMW has found that with a sporty car, DSC has the potential to ruin the drivers fun.

DTC will allow a little slippage without the DSC intruding. On previous BMW systems, if the DSC was turned off, there was no fail safe mode. With this new DTC mode, a little slippage is allowed by the DSC but the system will come in if the drivers gets into trouble. In other words,it allows a skilled driver to drift the car a little but the safety net is still there. The system is intelligent and reduces the target (the point the DSC will intrude) as speed increases. At higher speeds it goes into full DSC function to provide protection. It should be noted that these systems do not repeal the laws of physics and it is still possible to go into the corner entirely too fast..."

[Mueller944s2]

Thanks all for the info, definitely cleared up my questions! Without reading the manual (because I'm stupid and impatient), I've always assumed that when DTC was on in the gauge cluster then traction control was on and that was it.

[The HACK]

I would just like to point out...

While the DSC and DTC systems are quite advanced, they do not repeal the laws of physics. While they "extend" the threshold of what the car is capable of doing, vehicle dynamics is vehicle dynamics. When your sideways momentum exceeds even the limited grip available to your tires, no amount of DSC/DTC intervention is going to keep you going straight.

So it's fine and dandy that you or anyone here keep their DSC or DTC on when they're driving. But it's by no means bullet-proof. The only sure-fire way to keep your car going straight, is to learn the skills to keep the car going straight. Believe me, you CAN get sideways even with DSC on. With enough power and speed (and bad enough driving) you can overwhelm even the best of German engineer can offer.

While it's nice to have the extra layer of protection with electronic driving aides, I am a firm believer that you can ALWAYS learn to be even safer IF you have the proper car control skills. In addition, I believe DSC is capable of making even the average driver look like professional racers. The end result is that, since the "limit" is moved so far higher, when you do exceed that limit of what driving aides can intervene, it's already way past the possibility of recovery and the average driver won't know what to do when that happens.

[Mueller944s2]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I would just like to point out...

While the DSC and DTC systems are quite advanced, they do not repeal the laws of physics. While they "extend" the threshold of what the car is capable of doing, vehicle dynamics is vehicle dynamics. When your sideways momentum exceeds even the limited grip available to your tires, no amount of DSC/DTC intervention is going to keep you going straight.

So it's fine and dandy that you or anyone here keep their DSC or DTC on when they're driving. But it's by no means bullet-proof. The only sure-fire way to keep your car going straight, is to learn the skills to keep the car going straight. Believe me, you CAN get sideways even with DSC on. With enough power and speed (and bad enough driving) you can overwhelm even the best of German engineer can offer.

While it's nice to have the extra layer of protection with electronic driving aides, I am a firm believer that you can ALWAYS learn to be even safer IF you have the proper car control skills. In addition, I believe DSC is capable of making even the average driver look like professional racers. The end result is that, since the "limit" is moved so far higher, when you do exceed that limit of what driving aides can intervene, it's already way past the possibility of recovery and the average driver won't know what to do when that happens.

+1

When looking at people (always young) that wrecked their cars going fast, ALL of them thought they were good drivers, aka bulletproof.
I also found it interesting that the Z4 seems to hide its boundaries. By that I mean it's hard to know where the edge of control is. You think everything is ok so you push it harder and then without warning you cross that line

[l4zy]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

You're going to get a reaction from most folks on this site about running with DSC off on the road, and kicking out the rear end. Lots of track and AutoX enthusiasts here. We'll happily power oversteer with DSC off when it helps our times or we want to have some fun in a controlled environment--but driving at 9 and 10 10ths on public roads is going to generally be frowned upon.

It's not my place to tell you how to drive. I can simply say that for me I find there are too many unpredictable variables (other cars, road conditions, people, animals) on the road for me to drive the car in a manner I'd do in an AutoX or on the track. YMMD.

Originally Posted by The HACK

While it's nice to have the extra layer of protection with electronic driving aides, I am a firm believer that you can ALWAYS learn to be even safer IF you have the proper car control skills. In addition, I believe DSC is capable of making even the average driver look like professional racers. The end result is that, since the "limit" is moved so far higher, when you do exceed that limit of what driving aides can intervene, it's already way past the possibility of recovery and the average driver won't know what to do when that happens.

^+1

[zubydafa]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I've driven multiple ZCPs on track. The MZ4 Coupe's normal DSC ON mode is far closer to the ZCP's M Track Mode than any DSC equipped car built prior to 2006.

The DSC on the MZ4 Coupe will allow you up anywhere between 5-10º of additional slip angle before it tries to reign you in. It's far more advanced than the non competition E46 M3's DSC and it is certainly on-par with the ZCP's DSC if you ask me.

i used to have an m3 zcp 6mt. as far as standard DSC goes, i do agree that ours is much less intrusive than the m3's. however, my experience is that the M track mode allowed for more play and slip than does DSC in the z4m. this could just be because i've had some great rubber on the z4m so far and it doesn't wan't to slip (star specs and now PSS)... while i had conti's on the M3.

[Caddyshk]

Originally Posted by zubydafa

I wish we had an M track mode like in the ZCP

You do...

[ajw45]

DSC off, all the time. I'd rather overdrive the car and know about it sooner than have the electronics cover up little or driving. Especially in slippery conditions, I'd rather have control of my rear wheels than leave it up to the computer to start cutting throttle or breaking (driving in the snow is a good example). The z4m is also the first car I've tracked with traction control and after just a few laps it was off for good since it seemed to be flashing all the time and just wanted to keep the car tight rather than letting it track out of turns with the power down.
anyone know of a way to default dsc to off?

[krusty]

Ooooh? - what does this little DSC button do?

[SCHMOUPE]

Originally Posted by krusty

Ooooh? - what does this little DSC button do?

[elerner61]

[QUOTE=Mueller944s2;12356642... it's hard to know where the edge of control is. You think everything is ok so you push it harder and then without warning you cross that line[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I've had my roadster over year now and it still scares me more than I'd like. Its capabilities are very high, but on public roads those trees and other obstacles are really going to hurt right after you're quickly over the edge and say "oh sh*t".

DSC off? Don't think so. The odds are against you that it's going to bite you one day.

It is a thrill to drive though. In a Boxster I'd be saying "wow this is faster and my pants aren't wet", while in the M I'm saying "wow, this is more fun".

[Mueller944s2]

Well I tested it out both on and off and I have to say my opinions are changed a bit. With it off it just can't take much abuse at all, the back end doesn't swing well it just skips a little bit and in the rain, like yall said, its harder to control. With it on it's just glued to the road. It can't take the turns as fast as I would like with the systems on or off due to lack of weight in the back of the car, but I was impressed none the less with its amazing handling capabilities! However, at the end of the day I feel much more comfortable with my stability control being my right foot and knowing that I can easily swing my transmission around a corner whenever the 911s wanna play.

[mousitch]

IMHO I'm a decent driver. DSC OFF! and a freshly sprinkled wet,slick road was not good
for me. I leave it on all the time now. That rear end will get out quick. Real quick.

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthre...ht=BAD+WEEKEND

[RADRACR]

Noob question: How do I activate "DTC Mode"? All I'm seeing is a DSC button that's on or off.

I always turn DSC off. The rear has never slipped out where I'm dumbfounded about how the car got away from me. You really need to consciously do it, otherwise you're not a very skilled driver at all IMHO. However, wet roads are a different story -- DSC always on. You're asking for it otherwise.

At my first track day last month, I left it on for obvious reasons. Near the end of the day, I turned it off and realized a very obvious boost of speed through certain corners. But I can certainly understand how the car can get away from you in the heat of a track moment.

[Mueller944s2]

Originally Posted by mousitch

IMHO I'm a decent driver. DSC OFF! and a freshly sprinkled on road was not good
for me. I leave it on all the time now. That rear end will get out quick. Real quick.

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthre...ht=BAD+WEEKEND

wow, just wow...as long as you're ok that's the important thing. That's why if I plan on really twisty areas I take the Porsches. I learned to drive on a 911 so it's just a natural tendancy for me to swing the back whenever I want to get around a turn faster

[Mueller944s2]

Originally Posted by aestheticstorm

Noob question: How do I activate "DTC Mode"? All I'm seeing is a DSC button that's on or off.

I always turn DSC off. The rear has never slipped out where I'm dumbfounded about how the car got away from me. You really need to consciously do it, otherwise you're not a very skilled driver at all IMHO. However, wet roads are a different story -- DSC always on. You're asking for it otherwise.

At my first track day last month, I left it on for obvious reasons. Near the end of the day, I turned it off and realized a very obvious boost of speed through certain corners. But I can certainly understand how the car can get away from you in the heat of a track moment.

just hold the button for a couple seconds, DTC should come on on the gauge cluster

[Silververtu]

Originally Posted by aestheticstorm

Noob question: How do I activate "DTC Mode"? All I'm seeing is a DSC button that's on or off.

only non-M gets the DTC

[Mueller944s2]

Originally Posted by Silververtu

only non-M gets the DTC

I stand corrected

[mfanatic325]

I drive with DSC off. Always.

But I do drive slow in the rain, unless I happen to be somewhere with wide open spaces

[RichardTS]

This is a very interesting discussion. I am a bit old school as I come to an M from years of driving an MGB. No traction control at all - you just have to drive it right.

My experience also points to something no one has mentioned in this equation - tires. I can tell you that about 30 years ago the last thing you wanted on your MGB was some Michelins. They stuck like glue up to some point and then you were all over the road. Conversely, a set of Yokohamas would allow you to approach the limit and get a little wiggle in your rear end to let you know you were close.

So, what does everybody think about different tires have different effects, DSC on OR off?

[mfanatic325]

Originally Posted by RichardTS

This is a very interesting discussion. I am a bit old school as I come to an M from years of driving an MGB. No traction control at all - you just have to drive it right.

My experience also points to something no one has mentioned in this equation - tires. I can tell you that about 30 years ago the last thing you wanted on your MGB was some Michelins. They stuck like glue up to some point and then you were all over the road. Conversely, a set of Yokohamas would allow you to approach the limit and get a little wiggle in your rear end to let you know you were close.

So, what does everybody think about different tires have different effects, DSC on OR off?

I technically came up from an MR2 turbo, which, back in the day there was no such thing as traction control or stability control, etc.
In fact, my MR2 didn't even have the ABS haha. Cars nowadays are filled with SO MUCH ingenuity and tech that they're so easy to drive in comparison.

But on the flip side, it's probably because of the advancements in automobiles and the trickling down of new tech that cars are now able to go faster, and that's what gets people; going too fast without proper skill/training to keep the car under control.

Honestly, with good tires, I can't even slide out my rear with DSC off unless I really try. Even under spirited driving, I'm so used to taking the smoothest/straightest line through turns that the tires barely even chirp.

On rainy days, I turn DSC off on purpose sometimes just so I can slide the rear out for some fun. But again, only where there's wide open space and no pedestrians

[pyo]

When I bought the car, the rear tires that came with it were not good tires. Any wet condition, if I wasn't careful the rear end would slip out and also break traction 1st & 2nd with aggressive throttle. This is with dsc on.

I only drive without dsc or dtc on roads I know in dry conditions if I want to spiritedly drive, otherwise it's on all the time. Once I change out all 4 tires, I will start experimenting.