Double Clutch

[rc'Z]

Besides the rev matching / double clutching, you down shift to go, not to slow down or stop. Gears are for going, not slowing, brakes are for slowing and stopping.

On saving the syncro's, how many of you have had to replace your syncro's because you wore them out, for any reason??

[scottyD]

haha, I'd love to see how some of you downshift.

You just wasted 3 seconds depressing the clutch and stepping on it again for no reason. You have synchros for a reason. Try it on the race track and see how much slower your lap times are lap for lap.

I'd really enjoy comparing lap times between just average downshifting and letting the clutch take up the difference and having that jolt of deceleration, compared to a nice smooth and quick downshift into a lower gear and instant burst of acceleration with a double clutching technique.

If you've actually done it correctly, you'd know it takes much less time than 3 seconds - a little less than 1 second, and it doesn't feel like you just tapped the brakes and slowed yourself down before trying to accelerate.

study up, learn how to do it, and try it sometime - I bet you'll like it

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by scottyD

haha, I'd love to see how some of you downshift.



I'd really enjoy comparing lap times between just average downshifting and letting the clutch take up the difference and having that jolt of deceleration, compared to a nice smooth and quick downshift into a lower gear and instant burst of acceleration with a double clutching technique.

If you've actually done it correctly, you'd know it takes much less time than 3 seconds - a little less than 1 second, and it doesn't feel like you just tapped the brakes and slowed yourself down before trying to accelerate.

study up, learn how to do it, and try it sometime - I bet you'll like it

You are clearly ignorant on this subject, not only do I still doubt you've been double clutching but an "instant burst of acceleration" means you are also rev matching wrong. Love to see you try to downshift under heavy braking and see how THAT works out for you .



As mentioned the only time a double clutch is ever necessary or advantageous is 2nd to first while moving, and then not even fully needed. (there are synchros on first but I think it's a single cone)

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by KevinC

My first car, a '69 Beetle, had 96k on it when I bought it and the 2nd gear syncro was toast. A buddy taught me how to double-clutch, and voila, problem solved.

O-Cha, cool your damn jets. Nobody is a "tool" for doing this - double-clutching prevents wear on the syncros. If you downshift without doing it, or only blip the throttle, you are gradually wearing out your syncros. A properly timed double-clutch maneuver completely saves the syncro from any wear at all.

Not driving prevent wear on the engine... You should go ahead and not drive your car either.

Seriously it is what they are for.

[scottyD]

O-cha, no need to feel inferior - even you can learn how to do it properly and I'll bet you will be glad you did.

I also enjoy how everyone who disagrees with you is "clearly ignorant". Why doesn't the master explain to us how double clutching is properly performed and we'll see how accurate that explanation is???

You usually don't have any true technical information in your replies. all bark and no bite.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by scottyD

O-cha, no need to feel inferior - even you can learn how to do it properly and I'll bet you will be glad you did.

I also enjoy how everyone who disagrees with you is "clearly ignorant". Why doesn't the master explain to us how double clutching is properly performed and we'll see how accurate that explanation is???

You usually don't have any true technical information in your replies. all bark and no bite.

The funny thing is that you don't have the slightest realization that you're a middle school baseball player trying to hit in the major leagues.

You're not clearly ignorant because you're disagreeing with me, you're clearly ignorant because you're clearly ignorant. Ignorance is not an insult, it just means that you don't know.

If you would like some technical information feel free to read in this thread (where not only the proper procedure but the actually mechanical process taking place is explained ) where the subject of double clutching was already touched on in relation to the 1st to 2nd shift (where it's even more useless then downshifting).

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showpost...6&postcount=29




I hope you're able to educate yourself a little better and not be so easily swayed by hype in the future.

[O-cha]

I should also point out guys, you should go around a track at about 10mph, going any faster will wear your tires out much quicker. You don't want to do that do you? Actually, it's better to just park the car completely.

[scottyD]

tsk tsk. I gave you the chance to explain double clutching on downshift because you apparently know all there is to know about it, but again more barking and hype. More talk about why I am wrong but no apparent clear explanation why the post where your one bit of apparent technical genius is documented doesn't even begin to explain what double clutching on downshift is all about.

Take it from a mechanical engineer with a master's degree - your other post is far from technical. What I explained in this post is double clutching, and that's what I do. Deal with it, buddy.

For example:

In 6th gear, and I want to downshift to 5th.
Take foot off gas pedal and depress clutch pedal. (first clutch)
Shift to neutral and let go of clutch pedal.
Blip the gas pedal to give the engine and transmission some more revs.
Depress clutch pedal and shift into 5th gear. (second clutch)
Let go of clutch pedal and apply throttle.

In response to the original post, MRulz, some of us have been able to master the art of the double clutch, and since I haven't seen that video, I have no idea what that guy is doing. What I do know is that it is a much more professional way to shift a manual transmission. Do some research and practice and you'll find it's a better method. Good luck!

O-cha, take some of your own advice and leave you car and yourself in the garage.

[O-cha]

It seems a lot of people with 20 posts on the internet have masters degrees in engineering. Seems most of those people like you don't even understand simple mechanics.

You're a real winner.



Why don't you go ahead and explain, with your masters degree, exactly why you should double clutch. Why don't you start by explaining exactly how a synchro works and what it's purpose is. Better yet it's physical location in the gearbox or even how many there are total in ours.

I can, but I'm willing to bet you can't. And copying wikipedia does not count.

[scottyD]

haha, guess I don't have time to make 3400 posts when I'm at work all day or busy at home with the wife. What do you do for a living by the way??

Um, I did not say what you described was not double clutching, I said it was completely useless and stupid for you to be doing so, and doubt that you actually are and are just claiming to.

Most people do not understand things when explained "technically" it is the job of any person who actually has an understanding of the subject to explain it in as simple of a way as possible. Those who don't or are unable to do not have a clear understanding of the subject.

But I am glad you, who do not even understand what you are doing, gave me the chance to explain myself to you.

what, did you delete this? I believe you contradicted yourself quite a bit.

Why would you doubt I'm doing what I explained? That's probably the most jackass comment I've seen on these forums. Seems to me that if I can explain it, I must be able to do it. You can't explain how to do it, so I doubt you even know where to start.

Think about our conversation on the way home tonight, if you do have a job. Maybe try a double clutching downshift - probably best to practice in a big parking lot.

Your comment about wikipedia just shows that you didn't know what you were talking about and had to look it up yourself.

Double Clutching 101 by scottyD, as well as answers to simple questions asked by a very confused O-cha coming soon...

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by scottyD

haha, guess I don't have time to make 3400 posts when I'm at work all day or busy at home with the wife. What do you do for a living by the way??

Not that I meant low post count meant low credibility, just that usually people claim to be engineers, it becomes obvious (as it is now) that they aren't. So they don't post anymore.


Also That's no excuse anyways, I'm usually pretty busy at home with your wife too and still managed to post plenty.

[scottyD]

You are quite interesting, O-cha. I state a fact about either driving or my education, and you attempt to explain to me that I am lying.

Pure genius.

Again, I ask: what do you do for a living?

I wonder what the wife thinks about all the posts to car forums - I wonder about the quality of your relationship. Since when do # of posts = intelligence? Usually people who think they have to post more frequently feel they have something to prove.

[O-cha]

That was a your, not a my.

[scottyD]

That was a your, not a my.

Not a clue what this means. Just let it go, man. There's somebody out there who knows more about something than you do. It's okay.

What do you do for a living? for the third time, everybody...

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by rc'Z

On saving the syncro's, how many of you have had to replace your syncro's because you wore them out, for any reason??

I've driven/owned many a used car with abused syncros, typically 2nd gear grinding when downshifting, sometimes even when upshifting in extreme cases. This is quite common. Replacing the synchros isn't necessarily common, simply due to cost.

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Not driving prevent wear on the engine... You should go ahead and not drive your car either.

Aren't you supposed to be in school? Are you even old enough to drive??

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by rc'Z

Besides the rev matching / double clutching, you down shift to go, not to slow down or stop. Gears are for going, not slowing, brakes are for slowing and stopping.

On saving the syncro's, how many of you have had to replace your syncro's because you wore them out, for any reason??

i definitely downshift to engine brake on hills...

[nickpapa]

Originally Posted by scottyD

Not a clue what this means. Just let it go, man. There's somebody out there who knows more about something than you do. It's okay.

What do you do for a living? for the third time, everybody...

no offense, but i agree 100% with O-cha. regardless of the whole "barky" personality you may think he has on the forum, he is 100% correct.

i dont think he means to say that you are wrong in how you actually double clutch, but more that its unnecessary on cars that have synchros. synchros were added to transmissions to eliminate the need for double-clutching (which o-cha has explained).

also, i had a 91 VW GTI that i drove 190k miles in and never did any sort of double clutching. Sold the car with the same trans and the new owner (my cousin) still hasn't had an issue.

its your choice to double clutch or not but the fact is, it really is unnecessary

[scottyD]

I would agree that it is not necessary, so on that one point, nickpapa, I think O-cha is correct. The modern day transmission includes features to handle single clutch downshifting. In my opinion, that is sloppy downshifting. Single clutch upshifts are a completely other story, and quite fine in my book.

It is unfortunate when someone is attempting to assist in a question and is called out for being a liar or falsifying information or being ignorant, when it doesn't appear that the person doing the calling out is very informed. O-cha has a history of this, judging by his other posts where a disagreement erupts into argument. He has a tough time separating differences in opinion from differences in fact. The thread where he tells someone to ask for "muffler bearing fluid" is a glimpse into how he feels about trying to help someone out with an easy question.

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231272

What bothers me is for those inquiring minds that want to know how to double clutch, such as MRulz, it would be worthless to just tell him it's unnecessary and not do it. He wanted to know, so why would we not tell him? If you don't know how and just don't think it's necessary - that's absolutely fine. Don't harass someone else who is attempting to provide an actual answer to the original question.

Say what you want about the necessity, but I'll always do it. Makes a lot of sense to me, and is less stressful on the drivetrain. But, nickpapa, as you said, it is your choice, and your synchros can do it all for you. I prefer the smoothness and efficiency of the double clutch downshift.



Fact: double clutching on downshift is not necessary.

Fact: double clutching on downshift prevents extra wear on your drivetrain.

Opinion: double clutching on downshift leads to a more enjoyable shifting experience and demonstrates a higher driving skill level.

[Bammered]

Im just a bit confused by this whole double vs single clutch argument....

If I single clutch downshift and match the revs appropriately then my car engauges the lower gear in a completely smooth fashion then how did I wear my syncros?
The only time I would think my syncros would get extra wear is when mis-shift to second or when i am really off with my rev match and it jolts into gear ( but I still think that the majority of abuse from a mis-matched rev would be endured by the clutch not syncro)

I won't disagree that it looks cool and demonstrates a certain level of skill.... it just seems like an extraneous process and takes twice as long as a single clutch downshift.

BUt if it makes you happy to double clutch then who cares if its nessasary or not?
For the record I am neither or mechanic or an engineer, Just a guy who loves go heal toe downshift ( single clutch)

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Bammered

Im just a bit confused by this whole double vs single clutch argument....

If I single clutch downshift and match the revs appropriately then my car engauges the lower gear in a completely smooth fashion then how did I wear my syncros?
The only time I would think my syncros would get extra wear is when mis-shift to second or when i am really off with my rev match and it jolts into gear ( but I still think that the majority of abuse from a mis-matched rev would be endured by the clutch not syncro)

I won't disagree that it looks cool and demonstrates a certain level of skill.... it just seems like an extraneous process and takes twice as long as a single clutch downshift.

BUt if it makes you happy to double clutch then who cares if its nessasary or not?
For the record I am neither or mechanic or an engineer, Just a guy who loves go heal toe downshift ( single clutch)

You are "wearing" them like you wear your clutch every shift, but that's what they are for (and way higher mileage then a plate clutch. Typically they should last for hundreds of thousands of miles. Which is the whole point of why take extra time and effort every downshift (especially if performance driving).


Things that CAN make a synchro go faster though are peculiar habits that are frequently used. For instance, if your local track has a hairpin turn with a very high speed straight before it (Sebring from 130 ish down to 2nd gear ) and you decide it's a great idea to shift out of 4th and straight into second right away... and you do the repeatedly tens of thousands of times....


Your 2nd gear synchro might go out in 150k miles instead of 300k


Another thing though would be letting the clutch out before the car is in gear, if you have a bad habit of this that you reproduce often it can really fry them.

[Mikewarlover]

As far as i know that double clutching is pretty unneccessary on our cars. Just learn to rev match properly and you will be fine. O-cha does have a bad attitude but i have to say he is right most of the time and i respect his comment.(of course not feeling the way he says it)
For you ScottyD you kept asking what O cha does for living and i think he actually owns a autoshop and is a mechanic so he knows what he is on about. I guess people who can't win him in a technical arguement just try to start an attack on his attitude .... its funny