Z4 with SMG ?

[bennzwel]

G'day all,

I always thought SMG was introduced to M range (M3 first) but today , as part of my hunt for a cheap but reliable Z4 I came across a 2005 3.0i with SMG gearbox done around 100k miles.

I have never driven a SMG before and heard of issues with it. But can anyone shed some light on the concept so I know if it's worth considering or not ?

Thanks !

[KevinC]

I drove one years ago at the Performance Center at Spartanburg. It was "SMG I", the first iteration of it, and it was AWFUL! Run away from that rig and find one with a real (manual) transmission.

[Finnegan]

^WHS. SMG pump and other parts are really expensive and just keep going up in price.

[pokeybritches]

I've never driven one, but I've been reading what's written about them for the past 10 years. Some find it ok, most hate it.

I'll always be a three pedal guy.

[chickdr]

Some folks on the boards have them and love them. Personally I agree with others- why not find a good manual instead? It will be cheaper to maintain in the long run.

[KevinC]

It's also an important distinction that this was BMW's first attempt at SMG, not the later SMG II in the E46.. which also sucks, but not as hard. Gawd was that Z4 an awful drive!

[The HACK]

I had it in our old Z4 3.0i.

To clarify. This isn't the same "SMG" as what was in the E36 M3 that was available in Europe. In the Z4 3.0i it was called the SSG and while it didn't have the 6 stage shift programming and whatnot, it's got the same basic underpinning as the E46 SMG II. It's more a "hybrid" between the first and 2nd generation SMG that came on the M3s. Not as clunky as the first gen SMG (so I've heard), not as quick and advanced as SMG II. It lacks a true "launch control" and multiple shift speeds, and the automatic mode was useless in that it shifts at all the wrong time and places.

What it did offer us, was the ability for me to rip through the gears and have some fun, and for my wife to be able to drive one of her favorite cars in the garage without having to buy 2 Z4s like we did with the E46s. And when operated with a paddle in manual mode it was pretty good...So good I took it to local tracks and was chasing down some much better hardware driven by good drivers.

While we had the SSG equipped 3.0i, I had to take it in twice for strange behaviors. A couple of times it shifted into neutral and refuse to let me shift out of it in heavy traffic during very hot days. I had to reboot the car to get going again. Both times the dealership "reprogrammed it" and that was that. It was during the first year of ownership so whatever problem it had probably were related to software programming. Outside of those two instances it was pretty reliable.

But just like E46 M3s with SMGs, I wouldn't own the car too long past its warranty...Knowing that either the control module or the hydraulic pump will need to be replaced at one time or another.

[DerekSelmanRacing]

++1 on the hack.

We used ours as a track car and DD (wife can't drive stick) for 5 years. Now it's 99% track. LOVE IT!

The car has 27K total miles; I'd estimate at least 50% of that is track. Shifting screwed up a while back. Indy said I needed a whole new electro-hydraulic shift mechanism for $4500 installed. I bought a Chinese knockoff DIS GT computer for $1200 (which I've used for all sorts of things incl work on my 530) and a new hydraulic pump for $375 from BMW.

From what I've heard, average life of the pumps is about 75000-100000 miles in normal driving and replacement of the pump if you have it done should be less than $1,000.

[Caddyshk]

Here's my long winded response to the Magneti SSG system offered in the Z4 & e46 325/330, not to be confused with the Siemens system SMG II on e46 M3's. . I had SMG special ordered in a 2004 330I that I drove the hell out of, including 4 all out track days and never had a problem. BTW - the actual transmission and clutch is the same as the base e46 330 and can handle SC kits, as a matter of fact, most of the firms offering the kits have software to take SMG into account.

On 03's and early 04's SMG (SSG) had problems with the hydraulic pump failing (hence the slipping people have talked about). Other than that issue, the system is rock solid. On any used car, I would check the service records to ensure the pump has been replaced and, or the clutch/pressure plate due to the wear caused by the pump. The driving experience: In general I loved it - would have ordered a similar system for the Z4MC had it been available. Its great on the race track. In traffic it can be cumbersome due to the computer getting a little out of sync with the inputs you're giving it via the throttle and brake. You need to be conscious that you are driving a standard - how you manage the throttle in relation to how the computer is managing the clutch creates smoothness...

A - Auto mode - feels like someone driving the car that has never driven stick

M (manual) - R(regular) mode - shifts are slow and sluggish, however transfer of energy on the drivetrain is relatively smooth and your passengers will not be thrown about

M (manual) - S (sport) mode - shifts are rock solid and about as quick as most drivers would shift in sporty driving - tends to be harsh on passengers

M (manual) - SS (super sport) mode - shifts are race car quick, hard on the drivetrain and the system will upshift on its own just prior to hitting the rev limiter. This mode also has a launch control... Here's the scoop from a fellow who talked with the manufacturer:

Here is the answer from Dag from Germany. He has talked to Magneti Marelli:

I have a 325i with SSG, in Europe we call it SMG also. (Sequential manual
gearbox)
I have also tested the M3 with SMG made by Siemens.(And Ferrari 355 and 360
Modena with F1 shifting)
The system in the 325i and 330i is more intelligent, and better in everyday
use because of the ergonomics. It is developed by Magneti Marelli, by a guy
called Guiseppe Medico, the same guy also developed the F1 gearing for
Ferrari 360 Modena. He told me the system in BMW 325i and 330i is the latest
and most up to date system on the market. Magneti Marelli also developed
similar systems for the new Ferrari Enzo (look at the pictures and you will
see the logo from M.M. on the side of the Enzo), the 575 Maranello, the 355
and also the Ferrari F1 cars ! (The M.M. logo can be seen on Shumachers car
too...nice !)
The most important differences between M3 SMG and 325/330 SMG systems
is that with the M3 you have to use both hands for shifting, personally I
prefer to only use my right hand only for shifting. Sometimes I use my left
hand for both up and downshifts when my right hand is occupied with
something else. And sometimes when cruising I prefer to use the stick. Every
summer I go to the Nurburgring in Germany to race on the track, and my
experience there tells me that it is a clear benefit that the shifters
follows the steeringwheel. It is also a clear benefit that the gearbox
shifts automatically to the next gear when hitting the rev limiter. Then you
can focus on driving instead of shifting during acceleration. The M3 does
not have this feature, while the Formula 1 cars does !
Most people believe the M3 system shifts faster, but it does not. The
Magneti Marelli system does have a secret "Super sport" mode that is not
listed in the owners manual. I got this info directly from Magneti
Marinelli:
1.Turn off all the electronics (by pressing the DSP button for 4 seconds).
2.Press the sports button. 3.When the accelerator is pushed to the floor and
you let the gearbox do the upshifts automatically, you will experience Super
Sport shifting just as fast as the fastest program on the M3, very hard
racing shifting. The ordinary sport shifting is OK, but not even close to
the super sports mode. The M3 have 6 different levels, while the 325/330
system only have 3,regular, sport and supersport. Anyway I believe those
three are exactly the options you need.
You also have launch control and cruise mode, but I almost never use the
Cruise mode even if it works OK.

In closing - It's a great way to trick your wife into letting you get a manual car...

[bennzwel]

Thanks for your input and feedback . Unfortunately the car I'm looking at has no service history including anything for the gearbox. So it's mainly a very expensive ownership ahead . But if I come across another one with SSG gearbox I might consider it if it's all been taken care of well

[funkle]

I had a not so great experience with SMG. I drove a friends e46 M3 with SMG and loved it. It had 6 different levels, and the most aggressive felt like the car was being tail ended with every upshift. I had no doubt this shifted faster than a manual. The positive experience with the M3, plus the fact that my wife didn't want a manual prompted me to order an e46 330i with SMG sight unseen. I only used it in sport mode, never new about the 3rd secret program mentioned above. Not as quick as the M3, but fast enough. Then it started behaving strangely one day, hesitating to shift. It was still under warranty luckily. Several trips to the dealership, new clutch, new pump, and finally, new transmission, but the problem still not fixed. Initially they were able to fix the more extremely erratic behavior, but the shifting became intermittently slow. It was as if when you drove the car hard, the lag between shifts became slower, I'd say almost 2 seconds between shifts in sport mode. The off the record opinion of one tech was that the latest ECU program had more of a buffer built into it, in order to protect the drivetrain from some issue present in that SMG system. In the end, they could not fix the problem and BMW offered a cash settlement.

[DerekSelmanRacing]

I drive my car often on track in sport mode with all electronic aids off and it does not upshift automatically at full throttle. Are you saying you program it by turning on key w/o starting, disable aids, energize sport, floor throttle, start engine?

[The HACK]

To paraphrase Ben Parker:

With greater complexity, comes higher risk of failure.

It's as simple as that. Any of the SMG/DCT/whatever you want to call it manualmatics, they are all far more complex than a manual, without the decades of development behind it like an automatic (and automatics aren't THAT complicated, except for the valve body). Failure rate is bound to be higher.

So you gotta weigh the benefits and the drawbacks and see if they're worth it.

[JefnZfl]

Originally Posted by bennzwel

Thanks for your input and feedback . Unfortunately the car I'm looking at has no service history including anything for the gearbox. So it's mainly a very expensive ownership ahead . But if I come across another one with SSG gearbox I might consider it if it's all been taken care of well

Ive got a 03 with SMG. 6 spds-no clutch pedal. weirds a lot of people out.
My brother hated it. Takes some getting used to to drive smooth.
downshifts itself, and will hold at a light in gear with no foot on brake.
full automatic is complete utter crapola. just stupidly herky jerky-you brace for a shift it never comes or shifts unexpectedly-really bad.
'sport' mode shifts very fast. I always have it on, street or track.
Ive had it 'quit' twice-, few secs later it decides to work again. really pisses off those behind you though. you look like a jerk who cant use a stick, or who aint paying attention.
spirited driving I use the paddles-autocross.
everyday street is the stick in sport mode.
note: friends GTI has same setup and their up/down is opposite. DONT let them drive yours-