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      09-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #1
tikamak
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lang racing Project

First set of clarification questions with Mr. Andrew Lang about the Lang Racing S54 crankshaft journal widening kit.

Q: Knowing that I am required to send my crankshaft, can you supply a used crankshaft with the modification performed on it? How much would that cost extra?

A: The crankshaft core is 1000. This is refunded when we receive back a usable core to be modified. We can send you the modified crankshaft now and you can send back your crank when you are done installing the kit.


Q: What kind of rods are included in the kit? are they custom made to your specifications or they belong to a certain car?

A: It’s a commonly available rod that is usually on the shelf at most rod manufacturers. The rod that comes in the kit is an Eagle rod that has been weighed and balanced by us here. Upgrades are available for 100 per rod to go to Carrillo rods.


Q: Why do you use slightly longer rods as stated?

A: The rod ratio of the S54 is relatively low compared to the standard number we look for so our goal was to increase that number and move the pin up as high as we could. If you’ve seen a stock piston you know that there isn’t much room but it’s ideal so we are going to attempt to make it work. We have a wide range or piston ring sets we can choose from that might give us extra space. Worst case scenario we will have to use a rail support on the oil ring.


Q: Are pistons included as well? if yes, what kind?

A: Yes, Racetech (autotech) pistons. These are forged 4032 hi silicone aluminum alloy pistons.


Q: Is the structural rigidity of the crankshaft compromised when using an ESS supercharger up to 600 HP?

A: 6 cylinder crankshafts are long and naturally have a lot of flex in them. We are investigating the cost involved in doweling the crank and using billet steel crankshaft caps instead of the cast iron steel. This might be a costly solution but it would be ideal for people running high power stroked S54’s or a blown motor as you describe.


Q: Does the car require tuning after your crankshaft modification?

A: If compression ratio remains stock and the bore isn’t significantly increased I don’t believe the engine breathing should change significantly enough that the engine would require tuning. That being said most people going down this road are probably going to consider head porting and increasing bore size or compression ratio which ideally would require a tune.


Q: Do you have pics that illustrate rod bearings health 20K miles or more after you have performed your modification?

A: I don’t have this unfortunately. I don’t have the resources to do that extensive of testing just yet. For now the modification is just based on traditional engineering principles and the simple idea of increasing oil film surface area to add load carrying capacity to the rod bearing. It’s also based on the requirement of decreasing rod bearing diameter in order to save our damaged S54 crankshafts. I realize there are many people out there who question whether this will make a significant difference but I would point out to them that there is less evidence that their coated or treated bearings are making a significant difference either. The kit we made is not intended to be a preventative maintenance item, its for people who need to do a full rebuild due to a spun bearing or a massive engine failure. If you can continue replacing bearings every 50k miles or so then that’s probably the most economical way to take care of your engine. Eventually we will have this data when the kit has been running in more cars but we literally just released this kit so there isn’t enough miles on our product yet, that I will admit.
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      09-23-2013, 02:58 PM   #2
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      09-23-2013, 03:05 PM   #3
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good questions jad.......
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      09-23-2013, 03:18 PM   #4
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I'm not so sure about the eagle rods and the racetech (autotech) pistons but the engineering behind the journal widening is pretty accurate and makes scientific point. I hope this works out as it could mean that the value of an S54 equipped car will rise if this is performed successfully, especially if you use forged pistons and H beam lightweight con rods.

Even better if they can manufacture a lighter billet steel crankshaft with the same OEM specifications with widened journals, makes the kit much more reliable for clients.
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      09-23-2013, 10:01 PM   #5
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Tokamak. Thanks for doing this. I believe there are some good options for those who track the s54. I don't know of any motor that doesn't need any modifications for hard track duty. Or should I say fast track duty.
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      09-24-2013, 12:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seank View Post
Tokamak. Thanks for doing this. I believe there are some good options for those who track the s54. I don't know of any motor that doesn't need any modifications for hard track duty. Or should I say fast track duty.
Even if you don't track your S54, I believe the 100K mark is when you want to rebuild your engine to last an other 100K without having a risk of blowing out or leaking or such.

What i have found so far is that you need the following items when rebuilding an S54:
Mandatory:
Engine block set 11110302722
Head gasket set 11127831920
Head gasket 11127835918 (you can use MLS 0.04" thick)
Rod bearing set 11410395192 (comes with bolts and oil filter)
Main bearing set 11211706847

Optional for racing and/or better reliability:
ARP S54 Head Stud Kit
ARP S54 Conn rod bolts Kit
ARP S54 Main Stud Kit
VAC Euro Oil pump +22% flow

While you're in there:
forged pistons
con rods
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      09-25-2013, 05:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Even if you don't track your S54, I believe the 100K mark is when you want to rebuild your engine to last an other 100K without having a risk of blowing out or leaking or such.

What i have found so far is that you need the following items when rebuilding an S54:
Mandatory:
Engine block set 11110302722
Head gasket set 11127831920
Head gasket 11127835918 (you can use MLS 0.04" thick)
Rod bearing set 11410395192 (comes with bolts and oil filter)
Main bearing set 11211706847

Optional for racing and/or better reliability:
ARP S54 Head Stud Kit
ARP S54 Conn rod bolts Kit
ARP S54 Main Stud Kit
VAC Euro Oil pump +22% flow

While you're in there:
forged pistons
con rods
What are you basing that on? I rarely s54 S54s with leaking head gaskets that haven't been overheated (or horribly tuned) and main bearings wearing out are almost unheard of on non tracked S54s (and rare on tracked e46s as well).

I'd say do the rod bearings when oil analysis says it's time and main bearings.. I can't imagine them needing to be done on any car before 200,000, more likely 250-300,000 miles.

For context, my car is almost to 140,000 miles, ~4000 of which are track miles. Rod bearings needed to be replaced at ~125,000 miles (knew because of oil analysis said excess coper and lead). Crank bearings inspected while doing the rod bearings and they still looked like new-- no wear at all.

Compression/leakdown tests show the the head gasket is still holding strong.

ARP stuff is super nice, but the only significant benefit over stock is that it's reusable. If you're doing rebuilds every, say, 200,000 miles, that's going to take a long time to pay off. It's certainly not worse in any way other than price, but I don't really see the benefits as worthwhile-- new stock is cheaper and works just as well.

What you're suggesting is exceedingly expensive... and pointless. Certainly for street only car, really for tracked cars as well.
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      09-25-2013, 07:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Even better if they can manufacture a lighter billet steel crankshaft with the same OEM specifications with widened journals, makes the kit much more reliable for clients.
This would be ideal, just expensive. Same price as a stroker crankshaft, 3600 dollars. Custom billet steel 4130 heat treated, nitrided and balanced without drilling any holes. Probably ends up 3-4 pounds lighter than the OEM crank as well. I have a stroker version of this in production right now should be done in 2 months. Add that to the cost of the rods and pistons and you'll end up at the cost of what this would be. Obviously a large improvement over OEM in terms of weight of the rotating assembly.
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      09-25-2013, 09:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment View Post
This would be ideal, just expensive. Same price as a stroker crankshaft, 3600 dollars. Custom billet steel 4130 heat treated, nitrided and balanced without drilling any holes. Probably ends up 3-4 pounds lighter than the OEM crank as well. I have a stroker version of this in production right now should be done in 2 months. Add that to the cost of the rods and pistons and you'll end up at the cost of what this would be. Obviously a large improvement over OEM in terms of weight of the rotating assembly.
I really like what you guys are doing
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      09-25-2013, 11:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
What are you basing that on? I rarely s54 S54s with leaking head gaskets that haven't been overheated (or horribly tuned) and main bearings wearing out are almost unheard of on non tracked S54s (and rare on tracked e46s as well).

I'd say do the rod bearings when oil analysis says it's time and main bearings.. I can't imagine them needing to be done on any car before 200,000, more likely 250-300,000 miles.

For context, my car is almost to 140,000 miles, ~4000 of which are track miles. Rod bearings needed to be replaced at ~125,000 miles (knew because of oil analysis said excess coper and lead). Crank bearings inspected while doing the rod bearings and they still looked like new-- no wear at all.

Compression/leakdown tests show the the head gasket is still holding strong.

ARP stuff is super nice, but the only significant benefit over stock is that it's reusable. If you're doing rebuilds every, say, 200,000 miles, that's going to take a long time to pay off. It's certainly not worse in any way other than price, but I don't really see the benefits as worthwhile-- new stock is cheaper and works just as well.

What you're suggesting is exceedingly expensive... and pointless. Certainly for street only car, really for tracked cars as well.
Hi Obiodan, first of all, thank you for that castol TWS informative oil thread

Reading the horror stories on the S54 rod bearings like this one:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883939

makes me think that maybe the rod bearing design is not so good afterall.

Can you please tell me a little bit about your driving habits and if you have a pic of the rod bearings at 125K miles it would be good enough for me to base my thoughts on a real example. Also are you using the TWS 10w-60 ?
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      09-26-2013, 12:05 AM   #11
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btw it is not necessary to rebuild your engine on 100K, i said you need to do it just so that you don't have a risk of something bad happening like a spun rod bearing or a damaged crankshaft or something like that.

My engine has a bit of leaks here in there and I'm contemplating an engine rebuild just to be on the safe side, maybe some forged internals as well while i'm in there.

I'm charged with 550 hp btw.
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      09-26-2013, 06:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Hi Obiodan, first of all, thank you for that castol TWS informative oil thread

Reading the horror stories on the S54 rod bearings like this one:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883939

makes me think that maybe the rod bearing design is not so good afterall.

Can you please tell me a little bit about your driving habits and if you have a pic of the rod bearings at 125K miles it would be good enough for me to base my thoughts on a real example. Also are you using the TWS 10w-60 ?
I don't think the rod bearing design is optimal at all. I think it's 100% worth doing oil analysis and replacing them when excess lead and/or copper shows up. Neglecting to do so will result in a spun bearing for sure, as higher mileages add up!

I don't agree that the main bearings are a weak point. You rarely to never see them worn out on S54s. Replacing the mains is MUCH more involved than replacing the rod bearings. Rod bearings can be replaced in a day in the garage (great DIY thread here, btw). Main (crank) bearing replacement requires the engine to come out of the car.

My driving style is extremely hard street (redlined multiple times per day, every day) after it's allowed to properly warm up. It also has 4000 track miles, though none in the last 2 years as I got a dedicated track car. 10W-60 TWS from day 1, with 7750 mile OBC indicated OCIs (so really 5000-6000 miles OCIs) from day 1. I can probably dig up a pic, but they looked like worn bearings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
btw it is not necessary to rebuild your engine on 100K, i said you need to do it just so that you don't have a risk of something bad happening like a spun rod bearing or a damaged crankshaft or something like that.

My engine has a bit of leaks here in there and I'm contemplating an engine rebuild just to be on the safe side, maybe some forged internals as well while i'm in there.

I'm charged with 550 hp btw.
Leaks of oil or leaks of compression? If oil, likely your CPV and/or valve cover gasket. If compression, yes you do need a head gasket. Being FI certainly increases the stress on the head gasket, you may indeed need to replace it! But, if you meant oil leak... unrelated to that.
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      09-26-2013, 06:33 AM   #13
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I have some oil leaks from valve and crankcase gaskets and some have dripped into the transmission.

so i thought about why not just refresh all seals of my engines, including bearings and maybe get an oil pump.

I mean just go big with preventative maintenance. f***ing rebuild it with better clearances and such and while i'm at it why not just put down forged pistons and con rods and re-balance the crankshaft.
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