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      09-30-2013, 01:35 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I skimmed your reply above but I am not interested enough in this debate with you enough to read all of it. There is no "burden of proof" needed to create laws and many laws are created without guaranteeing the outcome. When we create laws that don't work we have the ability to alter or remove them. I am not happy with the current system and its' results when it comes to gun violence and believe we should try something else. I am open to ideas on how to change the current system to make it better. You are welcome to believe otherwise. I also believe this one of many problems our society has and in the big picture of my life this isn't something I dwell on. I am also pretty sure neither of our opinions on this issue will change.
You're talking about enacting a law to remove people's freedoms. Regardless of whether or not you believe you should HAVE to justify that opinion, the bottom line is, you do. The reason you do is because of the fundamental structure of our government.

In the case of what we should be free to do, this country is founded on the idea that "You should be able to do anything EXCEPT - X, Y, Z". Exceptions that we agree as a society benefit us to outlaw. This is the opposite of "You can ONLY DO - X, Y, Z". We start with and prioritize Freedom and make necessary exceptions, not the other way around.

So if you are trying to add another exception to the things we are allowed to do, you need to justify why you believe we should have less freedom. That is the Burden I'm speaking of. It's not on us to justify why we should be allowed to. It's on you to justify why we shouldn't. That is why the question "why do you need this?" isn't a valid one.


You mention you're open to other ideas. I think anyone with an open mind is. But being open to other ideas doesn't mean we are going to implement them without proper justification.

If I'm sick, I may be open to any treatment which can cure me. But I have to be cautious not to act out of desperation and not to try anything that anyone hands me. I have a limitless number of things I could try ranging from raw food diets to blood letting to homeopathy. Do we try them all? Do we only try a few? If so, how do we decide which few we try?

If you propose a solution, you need to demonstrate to me how it will be effective. I'm not just going to fill my body with random trash or perform random procedures in a desperate effort to get better.
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      09-30-2013, 04:37 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
You're talking about enacting a law to remove people's freedoms. Regardless of whether or not you believe you should HAVE to justify that opinion, the bottom line is, you do. The reason you do is because of the fundamental structure of our government.

In the case of what we should be free to do, this country is founded on the idea that "You should be able to do anything EXCEPT - X, Y, Z". Exceptions that we agree as a society benefit us to outlaw. This is the opposite of "You can ONLY DO - X, Y, Z". We start with and prioritize Freedom and make necessary exceptions, not the other way around.

So if you are trying to add another exception to the things we are allowed to do, you need to justify why you believe we should have less freedom. That is the Burden I'm speaking of. It's not on us to justify why we should be allowed to. It's on you to justify why we shouldn't. That is why the question "why do you need this?" isn't a valid one.


You mention you're open to other ideas. I think anyone with an open mind is. But being open to other ideas doesn't mean we are going to implement them without proper justification.

If I'm sick, I may be open to any treatment which can cure me. But I have to be cautious not to act out of desperation and not to try anything that anyone hands me. I have a limitless number of things I could try ranging from raw food diets to blood letting to homeopathy. Do we try them all? Do we only try a few? If so, how do we decide which few we try?

If you propose a solution, you need to demonstrate to me how it will be effective. I'm not just going to fill my body with random trash or perform random procedures in a desperate effort to get better.
What you're missing is this forum is like being at a party or a bar. We had a conversation, I said what I thought and you said what you thought and now I would be happy to move on. You are saying I have to justify or prove my opinion to you? I really don't, it's a waste of time, and I am pretty sure I won't change your opinion and you won't change mine.

Every law that has ever been created took away some freedoms and now we have thousands of them. Where in the process of creating these laws is it required that one side prove that the law will work or make things better?

Obamacare is a new law (not saying I agree with it) that many don't like, the law was created, it removed freedoms, did they prove the law will make things better? Many don't believe they did. As long as the legislative process is followed I don't see where any proof of anything is required.

With any issue or decision made (personally or professionally), most look at the facts, look at the options, and then take then take the option they think is best. There is no proof needed to change what you currently do.
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      09-30-2013, 06:13 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
What you're missing is this forum is like being at a party or a bar. We had a conversation, I said what I thought and you said what you thought and now I would be happy to move on. You are saying I have to justify or prove my opinion to you? I really don't, it's a waste of time, and I am pretty sure I won't change your opinion and you won't change mine.
I'm not saying you have to justify your opinions to me in general. I'm saying that opinion that you hold is a common position (tell me why you need it..), one that hinges on the fallacy of shifting of the burden of proof. You don't have to justify it TO ME. But if you propose to ban something, you simply have to be able to justify it for it to hold any weight.

I know you admitted to not fully reading my post, which is unfortunate. My car analogy spelled out why asking "why do you need this" is a poor question to ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
With any issue or decision made (personally or professionally), most look at the facts, look at the options, and then take then take the option they think is best. There is no proof needed to change what you currently do.
If you're working off of facts to base your belief off of, then you have justification for it. I don't know why you're fighting so hard to avoid justification when you're example above clearly shows that you normally have it.

If you think we should ban 15 rnd magazines (or whatever it was you suggested), justify why we should. Asking us "do we really need them?" is as useless a question as asking "do we really need 300hp cars?". The answer to both is no. And neither of those answers is a good reason to make either illegal.

Get it?
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      09-30-2013, 06:21 PM   #92
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You are saying I have to justify or prove my opinion to you? I really don't, it's a waste of time, and I am pretty sure I won't change your opinion and you won't change mine.
To clarify this - You don't have to "prove" your opinion to me. You SHOULD be able to justify your beliefs to yourself and be ready to provide that justification to any reasonable person you are trying to convince of that belief

Every belief I hold, I can justify. But my justification for it might be poor or based off of incorrect information. If you have a belief that's different than mine and your justification is better than mine, I will absolutely change my mind. It might not be instantaneous but that is how you change people's minds in reasoned dialogue.

You don't throw up your hands and go "well I don't have to justify my beliefs to you and we won't change our minds anyway". If you do, you are admitting that you are unreasonable (don't have to justify your beliefs) and implying that you think we are both closed minded (we won't change our minds anyway).
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      10-02-2013, 06:53 AM   #93
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Thanks for the input!
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      11-10-2014, 06:22 PM   #94
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The Dinh Bowman case is going to trial next week:

Trial in wine steward’s slaying to begin next week
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      11-12-2014, 12:02 AM   #95
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No tree on our property high enough to hang this deviant, should be interesting to see what courts can do to put him where he belongs; sad thing is that taxpayers money bought him breakfast, lunch and dinner eveyday for the last 2 years
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      11-17-2014, 11:35 AM   #96
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Jury selection started today.

Anyone wishing to follow this trial can find the latest updates on the Yancy Noll Memorial page on Facebook.

I won't be posting any more updates on this case except possibly the verdict when the trial is over.
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      12-16-2014, 07:30 PM   #97
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Guilty!

A verdict was reached last week in the trial of Dinh Bowman. The prosecutor's case was based on this being a "thrill killing" and presented evidence that Bowman had deliberately planned to murder a total stranger. Lots of documents to that effect were found on his computer and presented in court. The jurors deliberated less than a day and convicted Bowman of First Degree Murder. Sentencing will take place next month. The charge carries a sentence of 25-35 years (accounts vary on the sentence range).

Hours after the verdict Bowman attempted suicide by slitting both of his wrists with a razor. He was not successful.

The fate of his Z4 M Roadster, from which he fired the fatal shots at Yancy Noll, striking him in the head three times while he was stopped at a red light, are unknown.
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      12-16-2014, 08:25 PM   #98
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test test  [0.00]
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Was this SOB a forum member?
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      12-17-2014, 01:03 PM   #99
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sick world "thrill killing"
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      12-17-2014, 01:58 PM   #100
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Was this SOB a forum member?
I don't believe so.

Total psychopath if he planned to kill just to kill. I wish the sentence has been life. There's no reforming someone with no heart or soul.
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      12-17-2014, 02:12 PM   #101
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Too bad the judge didn't give the guy the option of facing the family and friends of the victim as an alternative to incarceration. Now THAT woud be justice.
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      12-21-2014, 09:14 AM   #102
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Apparently Bowman tried to kill himself with a razor after the conviction.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/conv...cide-ra/njStb/
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      03-02-2016, 06:22 PM   #103
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On Friday, February 27, CBS's 48 Hours aired an episode about the Yancy Noll murder titled "A Student of Murder". Unfortunately, I missed the original airing because I didn't know it was going to be on. Fortunately, it is available to stream online at the CBS/48 Hours website. It's also available On Demand on DirecTV and is available there until 4/1, however, it's not in HD, and you can't skip the commercials.

It was one thing to follow this case through the media at the time, but quite another to see how the prosecution accumulated all of their evidence (although 48 hours didn't cover some of it), and to actually see footage of this sociopathic scumbag at his trial, and particularly at his sentencing. The recordings of his jail house conversations with his (now) ex-wife were particularly disturbing. Narcissistic personality disorder for sure with a severely distorted view of reality (much like another high-profile personality currently in the media).

From time to time after the trial I would try to find out why Jennifer Bowman (now Jennifer Alexander) was never charged with aiding and abetting Dinh Bowman, but now I know why. A bad decision by the prosecutor to be sure.

Aside from the cold-blooded murder, it was sad to see Bowman's Z4 M Roadster languishing in a police warehouse, gathering dust, with the top still down no less. It was absolutely instrumental in police finding and prosecuting Bowman; of all the cars to use in such a public murder, with witnesses! If he had used a Camry, he may never have been found, but then I never would have had any interest in the case in the first place.

There's a lot of comments on the 48 Hours Facebook page if you're interested. The first post about the broadcast is on February 27 at 2:07 PM. Most of the comments are on the posts dated February 28, the day after this was broadcast.

And last, but not least, here is the Yancy Noll Memorial page on Facebook.
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      03-03-2016, 08:13 AM   #104
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I assume they were just trying to be dramatic, but it was pretty laughable when the woman made the comment about needing to "shoot someone through the window of your very fancy sports car". What difference does it make what you are driving if you are shooting through the window? They seemed to make a big deal out of the fact he drove a fancy BMW. Amazing how much animosity driving a nice car creates.
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      03-03-2016, 11:07 AM   #105
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Yeah, I agree! I think it goes to the perception that Bowman was a privileged, relatively well-off (wife made $250,000/yr.) individual who seemingly had everything he wanted/needed, so that the modest sports car that he drove became a "very fancy sports car" just to emphasis that point. It's not like it was a Ferrari, Lamborghini, or some other exotic sports car. It also goes to the general public perception that BMW drivers are douche bags. I almost expected her to say "very fancy BMW sports car". Good thing they didn't have the knowledge about this particular car to emphasize that it was an M model, the fastest, most powerful, and most expensive model of an already "very fancy sports car".

Another thing related to Bowman's Z4 M Roadster that was pretty laughable was the witness who claimed that the car just took off, "zero to 60 in like, 2 to 3 seconds". Obviously knows nothing about cars.
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      03-04-2016, 10:43 PM   #106
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Just watched this and thought those bits were funny too. My fav though was when the host said he bought cheaper tires instead of the expensive "BMW tires"

But yeah... Sad story
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      07-07-2021, 06:40 PM   #107
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This article was posted last month about Dinh Bowman's wife, the former Jennifer Bowman, his after-the-fact accomplice, who was never charged, and who has since changed her name:

https://thecinemaholic.com/where-is-...er-bowman-now/

Here's another article that I found from 2017, Dinh Bowman's appeal:

https://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/730690.pdf
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