What cc injectors came with you're ESS VT 500/525 kit

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Gt4

Do you know what injectors size are on the VT1-445?

They are 350cc as well. (At least my version of the kit , they may use a smaller size now)
George

[Beedub]

Would really like ess to come in here and talk about this choice an the reasoning behind it .......

[Gt4]

Originally Posted by Beedub

Would really like ess to come in here and talk about this choice an the reasoning behind it .......

I don't think it will happen, here is there conclusion to the limp mode we have...

http://www.esstuning.com/products/Z4...er-System.html

*The Z4M is very sensitive to vehicle sensor feedback. It is critical that all sensors and factory hardware components are in proper working condition. It is not uncommon to have the vehicle go into a power reduction mode during operation due to a fault during vehicle self diagnostics.

[GuidoK]

I can understand their reaction.
I mean if you -as a manufacturer- go on forums you're most likely going to deal with problems from end users who haven't installed the kit themselves. And if they did, they don't have any real hands on experience with bmw factory diagnostic equipment.
And even then, a problem is hard to diagnose as you're not working in person on the car.
Has any of you had such problems (or other problems) and had the kit installed at ESS (norway/arizona)?
Or at least at one of their official dealers (you can go to them and let it sort out). If the engine goes into limp mode, it is saved in the dme memory (codes, mileage, speed and rpm), so they can always read that code.
I mean somewhere there is a line between product support and installation support. (not that i'm saying that ess isn't at fault here or something like that, but matters like this can be 'complicated')

If you go and react on a forum, you (as a manfacturer) mostly want to ask questions that the person cannot answer, and further more you have to deal with all the static from other users.
Sorting out these problems with the supplier is best done in private.
(I think there's a big difference in the opinion one'd form from reading about ess on forums, or when calling or mailing them. (maybe calling is even better))

If I was a manufacturer, I certainly would not (or at least as little as possible) react on a forum like this. There is also not much moderation here.
If you look at a forum like bimmerbo0st, a lot of manufacturers/tuners are more interactive, but that is mainly because of very active moderation from sticky, so chances on a negative thread are slim (as long as you're sponsor).
But as ESS is not a sponsor there...... they are of course the bad guys

still... that statement on their website is a bit questionable..

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I can understand their reaction.
I mean if you -as a manufacturer- go on forums you're most likely going to deal with problems from end users who haven't installed the kit themselves. And if they did, they don't have any real hands on experience with bmw factory diagnostic equipment.
And even then, a problem is hard to diagnose as you're not working in person on the car.
Has any of you had such problems (or other problems) and had the kit installed at ESS (norway/arizona)?
Or at least at one of their official dealers (you can go to them and let it sort out). If the engine goes into limp mode, it is saved in the dme memory (codes, mileage, speed and rpm), so they can always read that code.
I mean somewhere there is a line between product support and installation support.

If you go and react on a forum, you (as a manfacturer) want to ask questions that the person cannot answer, and further more you have to deal with all the static from other users.
Sorting out these problems with the supplier is best done in private.
(I think there's a big difference in the opinion one'd form from reading about ess on forums, or when calling or mailing them. (maybe calling is even better))

If I was a manufacturer, I certainly would not (or at least as little as possible) react on a forum like this. There is also not much moderation here.
If you look at a forum like bimmerbo0st, a lot of manufacturers/tuners are more interactive, but that is mainly because of very active moderation from sticky, so chances on a negative thread are slim (as long as you're sponsor).
But as ESS is not a sponsor there...... they are of course the bad guys

still... that statement on their website is a bit questionable..

I'm not bashing them by any means , as I said earlier on the post they have always taken care of issues with their kits in a very timely manner and had great customer service . However they have shipped multiple wrong parts to me at this point that has cost me many hours of labor on my car . While I have methodically done everything they have asked to solve the on track only limp mode . ( brake booster check valve , larger oil cooler , larger radiator , new fuel filter / fuel pump )I just wish they had brought up the injectors might be an issue subject with me personally .
George

[GuidoK]

Maybe they didn't knew (or at least not actively knew) that you had the smaller injectors.
At least I don't think they were holding back anything or so. In my experience they are always very generous with swapping parts etc if something is not quite upto expectation etc.

I recognize the wrong parts issue.... I got a kit for a e46 (and yes, there are a lot of small differences, on what is supposed to be the same engine...that had cost me an oil filter housing if I didn't knew how to weld aluminium...).
And later they forgot to send some other small stuff... And DME's that take forever with fedex......
So yes I agree, logistics are definately not their strong point (but I don't know if that's any better with the competition as I have no other experience on this)

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Maybe they didn't knew (or at least not actively knew) that you had the smaller injectors.
At least I don't think they were holding back anything or so. In my experience they are always very generous with swapping parts etc if something is not quite upto expectation etc.

I recognize the wrong parts issue.... I got a kit for a e46 (and yes, there are a lot of small differences, on what is supposed to be the same engine...that had cost me an oil filter housing if I didn't knew how to weld aluminium...).
And later they forgot to send some other small stuff... And DME's that take forever with fedex......
So yes I agree, logistics are definately not their strong point (but I don't know if that's any better with the competition as I have no other experience on this)

I fully believe it was an innocent mix up situation where i received the Vt2-500 injectors and tune with the VT- 525 pulleys . Its just really frustrating that this and other wrong part issues has been the main source of my problems since i upgraded not the "mechanical condition of my car".

[gmd2003]

I got these today from ESS , they are according to the Bosch table I looked up 440 CC @3bar . So at our 80 psi fuel pressures they should be enough . I will be installing them and the new tune on Friday and hopefully setting up a dyno session next week .
George

[Soorena]

^ Still not enough for you power levels. Audi 1.8T had those Injectors.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by Soorena

^ Still not enough for you power levels. Audi 1.8T had those Injectors.

for 10 years of selling the s54 kit ess doesnt seem to have had any issues with these, again they are the experts, so if they are happy, im happy at this point.

my injectors have the part number burn't off interestingly....

our fuel pressure @ 5 bar makes these lower cc choices work.

all i know it works and has done for numerous years without issues, however its good that george high lighted the issues when adding a touch more boost or other upgrades you will quickly run out of injector!

again my AFR is a solid 11.5 at WOT/redline...

i wonder what injector VFE use.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Beedub

for 10 years of selling the s54 kit ess doesnt seem to have had any issues with these, again they are the experts, so if they are happy, im happy at this point.

my injectors have the part number burn't off interestingly....

our fuel pressure @ 5 bar makes these lower cc choices work.

all i know it works and has done for numerous years without issues, however its good that george high lighted the issues when adding a touch more boost or other upgrades you will quickly run out of injector!

again my AFR is a solid 11.5 at WOT/redline...

i wonder what injector VFE use.

I think the 440 cc is ok for the 525 kit but the 350cc were not even marginal for above 500 spec . VF uses an injector series that ranges from 550cc - 1000 cc but they don't specify which . They do seem to use a different regulator which I assume is a lower bar than 5 . So I imagine fueling could be fairly similar depending on the regulator pressure . I'm fine with whatever choice a company makes if they design and test it sufficiently . The frustrating thing is the 525 kit was never designed to use the smaller injector . I'm pretty sure I received the 500 kit ( tune / pulleys )when I upgraded to the 525 , but the 525 belts . When I corrected the pulley mistake I was doomed to run lean from that point . Fortunately , I had boost leaks keeping me safe lol .

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by Beedub

for 10 years of selling the s54 kit ess doesnt seem to have had any issues with these, again they are the experts, so if they are happy, im happy at this point.

my injectors have the part number burn't off interestingly....

our fuel pressure @ 5 bar makes these lower cc choices work.

all i know it works and has done for numerous years without issues, however its good that george high lighted the issues when adding a touch more boost or other upgrades you will quickly run out of injector!

again my AFR is a solid 11.5 at WOT/redline...

i wonder what injector VFE use.

I have no idea why you have perfect AFRs. What colors are your injectors? Burnt off part numbers are very common with tuners.

My math show those injectors aren't enough for these power levels unless these are some sort of magical injectors.

[Beedub]

Mine are grey .

watch the last 15 secs when im on the straight and fully in throttle.... 11.3 so clearly enough fuel.... ignore the rest of the clip im on and off the throttle as this is a sprint course.

must be those magic injectors huh ??

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Beedub

Mine are grey .

watch the last 15 secs when im on the straight and fully in throttle.... 11.3 so clearly enough fuel.... ignore the rest of the clip im on and off the throttle as this is a sprint course.

must be those magic injectors huh ??

Beedub you still have catted headers correct? It's not magic its the fact that our fuel pressure is 80psi at redline. I can't think of many cars with as high of a fuel pressure. The injector duty cycle of the 350's is 100% at approx 400whp though even considering the high fuel pressures. What he is saying is that is not considered a good thing regardless of your AFR. It's what i would call just ok engineering. Anything over 430whp and you would run lean. Important for people to know who have 500 kits and want to do high flow headers, run different pulleys etc.
George

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Beedub you still have catted headers correct? It's not magic its the fact that our fuel pressure is 80psi at redline. I can't think of many cars with as high of a fuel pressure. The injector duty cycle of the 350's is 100% at approx 400whp though even considering the high fuel pressures. What he is saying is that is not considered a good thing regardless of your AFR. It's what i would call just ok engineering. Anything over 430whp and you would run lean. Important for people to know who have 500 kits and want to do high flow headers, run different pulleys etc.
George

no my car is euro.... no cats at all in the headers... i do however have cats in the section one.... i believe euro cars have a different tune.

but i hear you george and as said i defintely respect what your saying the current injectors leave no room for movement and tbh.... i think its worth while upgrading and retuning... these injectors only work due to our insane fuel pressure.... id still love ess to come in here and post their reasoning for using these and why the continue to use them, but i agree, this is very much, these will do attitude instead of over engineering..... luckily its an easy fix tbh :-)

would be nice to drop fuel pressure and run a proper largeer injector from the like id I.D or ansu.

[MPowerZ32]

I've just gone through this thread, and am pretty confused. I'm running VT1-445 kit. Presumably I'm running 350cc injector? I have catless headers and about to install catless exhaust section 1. Will i run too lean WOT at redline? I have not experienced any problems with just the catless headers so far. Or maybe I'm running lean already but I just haven't realized it?

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by MPowerZ32

I've just gone through this thread, and am pretty confused. I'm running VT1-445 kit. Presumably I'm running 350cc injector? I have catless headers and about to install catless exhaust section 1. Will i run too lean WOT at redline? I have not experienced any problems with just the catless headers so far. Or maybe I'm running lean already but I just haven't realized it?

Drop ess an email and get the feedback ...

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by MPowerZ32

I've just gone through this thread, and am pretty confused. I'm running VT1-445 kit. Presumably I'm running 350cc injector? I have catless headers and about to install catless exhaust section 1. Will i run too lean WOT at redline? I have not experienced any problems with just the catless headers so far. Or maybe I'm running lean already but I just haven't realized it?

I would rec always checking AFR's after making any changes beyond what a kit was tested with . Not sure what injectors you have to be honest , but at 5psi you should be good if you have 350's .

[Gt4]

Originally Posted by MPowerZ32

I've just gone through this thread, and am pretty confused. I'm running VT1-445 kit. Presumably I'm running 350cc injector? I have catless headers and about to install catless exhaust section 1. Will i run too lean WOT at redline? I have not experienced any problems with just the catless headers so far. Or maybe I'm running lean already but I just haven't realized it?

It only happen on the track in 4-5 gear during cold days in my case.

I am not able to get that limp mode on the street.

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by Gt4

It only happen on the track in 4-5 gear during cold days in my case.

I am not able to get that limp mode on the street.

Knowing how you drive from you other posts, i feel that you are experiencing some fuel starvation or inadequate fueling. care to try a surge tank kit from radium?

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by tikamak

Knowing how you drive from you other posts, i feel that you are experiencing some fuel starvation or inadequate fueling. care to try a surge tank kit from radium?

A surge tank won't help if it is injectors that are the problem. We can't make assumptions that the kit is good for track use as is , in any trim . I've proven that even in VT-1 trim it needs more oil cooling, and on high Air density days during hard track use it may run lean due to injector choice. Remember I overbuilt my car on the fuel delivery side and still had issues bc of the injectors .
George

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

A surge tank won't help if it is injectors that are the problem. We can't make assumptions that the kit is good for track use as is , in any trim . I've proven that even in VT-1 trim it needs more oil cooling, and on high Air density days during hard track use it may run lean due to injector choice. Remember I overbuilt my car on the fuel delivery side and still had issues bc of the injectors .
George

I was thinking about fuel starvation because he has the VT1 kit.