Michelin PSS not durable?

[Krypptic]

Below is a picture of my left front tire after 3 track events, and maybe 250 miles of street driving. I am told this May be from overheating the the tire, but I never suspected such degradation. Will be switching to r888's but was still wondering if anyone has any insight as to why this would happen.

[seank]

Wow. This just happened after one lap or gradually. If I had to make a guess, I would assume that your tire pressure was too low and you didn't have enough camber to begin with for your driving. Think of it like dragging the sides of your shoes sideways down the road.

Durable? Not on their sides.

Btw. r888's won't help you here either. It will be worse, since they are stickier.

[Krypptic]

Originally Posted by seank

Wow. This just happened after one lap or gradually. If I had to make a guess, I would assume that your tire pressure was too low and you didn't have enough camber to begin with for your driving. Think of it like dragging the sides of your shoes sideways down the road.

Durable? Not on their sides.

Happened gradually but pressure was not low at all 42 hot. Any higher than that and it loses traction from bowing like a donut. My camber is just under 2.0 up front. I know some run more aggressive but I'm on a stock suspension.

Here's a pic from a few weeks ago. All that body roll an issue?

[Finnegan]

Track direction and majority of turn direction?

Alignment settings?

Yes, overheating, but alignment might have a lot to do with it.

[Kgolf31]

IMO, the tire isnt made to see the track, but people who mount them swear by them and get a cult following behind the tire.

Not saying you're one of them, but I think this is why people believe the PSS tires can handle that type of abuse.

I'm on my phone, so i cant post the picture, but I've had my Hankook RS3s for 2 years that saw 3 track days and 20+ autocross events and they are worn down to the point of 2 central treads and have been wearing perfectly fine.

Unless you're use to R888s, IMO that might be too big of a step from PSS tires.

[seank]

Originally Posted by Krypptic

Happened gradually but pressure was not low at all 42 hot. Any higher than that and it loses traction from bowing like a donut. My camber is just under 2.0 up front. I know some run more aggressive but I'm on a stock suspension.

Here's a pic from a few weeks ago. All that body roll an issue?

You have two options.

-lose the aero that keeps you stuck to the ground toasting the tires or give yourself 3.8 degrees with all the aero on stock suspension. Stock suspension with more grip means you need more camber to off set the roll.

You can add big sway bars and the group buy reinforcement kit if its a daily driver.

Like I said earlier, what ever your issue is, it will only be worse with stickier tires.

[Krypptic]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Track direction and majority of turn direction?

Alignment settings?

Yes, overheating, but alignment might have a lot to do with it.

This is the track, but I need to get my alignment settings from my indie.

[Krypptic]

Originally Posted by seank

You have two options.

-lose the aero that keeps you stuck to the ground toasting the tires or give yourself 3.8 degrees with all the aero on stock suspension. Stock suspension with more grip means you need more camber to off set the roll.

You can add big sway bars and the group buy reinforcement kit if its a daily driver.

Like I said earlier, what ever your issue is, it will only be worse with stickier tires.

I don't think the aero has anything to do with this. I noticed a similar problem two months ago, and already contemplated the change to r-comp.

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=873167

The thing is it happened before the aero which was installed after that thread. It's not a daily driver for me, but I have been waiting on the Ohlins group buy. Maybe I need to make the leap now for something else? Could the excessive body roll be the problem?

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Krypptic

This is the track, but I need to get my alignment settings from my indie.

That track is going to be hard on that side, especially w/o adequate negative camber. -2.0 isn't going to cut it. Other adjustments, bars or other, may be required as well.

[seank]

Originally Posted by Krypptic

I don't think the aero has anything to do with this. I noticed a similar problem two months ago, and already contemplated the change to r-comp.

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=873167

The thing is it happened before the aero which was installed after that thread. It's not a daily driver for me, but I have been waiting on the Ohlins group buy. Maybe I need to make the leap now for something else? Could the excessive body roll be the problem?

Yes. The only way that I know to do it is excessive wear on the outside of the tire.

[Small Yellow]

Definitely overheating of the tires and not enough camber. You should see the PSS on my M3, the whole middle section is completely missing but I still have the sides lol. It was too much fun sliding and they were already toast :P

[Kgolf31]

I don't think the blame should be put on the car here guys.

I torture my front tires, as you can see:



and this is the result over a 2 year wear period:



The PSS tire is simply a tire that should be never driven on the track, it sucks.

[z4msteve]

You're running aero on 2 degrees of camber. You should have 3.5+, and consider upgrading your rear trailing arm bushings and front control arm bushings so that the alignment holds true through a corner. Get the Turner Camber Bolt kit if nothing else.

PSS to R comp is a big jump. You'll notice a lot less feedback, and it makes it harder to learn if you aren't already pretty solid in your technique. RS3 is an excellent upgrade from the PSS, imo.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I don't think the blame should be put on the car here guys.

I torture my front tires, as you can see:



and this is the result over a 2 year wear period:



The PSS tire is simply a tire that should be never driven on the track, it sucks.

Track is different though I think. Heat buildup over a 20-25 minute session is different than managing tires autoX. Sure, it's possible to chew/chunk the tires, but extended high duration heat isn't an issue. I think you're running updated bars too, and IIRC some shots I've seen show those helping to manage the tires in front yes?

Krypptic also has the Aero, which is effectively putting more weight on the outside edge increasing friction/heat on that one area of the tire. (Not helping matters but not the cause either.)

Even with -2.7 degrees my right front Star Specs are more worn (with a bit of overheating) on the outside edge and pyrometer confirms its a bit overcooked too. (The track I run on is predominately left hand turns with some long sweepers.) I think I need -3.0 to -3.5 to balance the load and/or different springs/bars. PSS might not handle this as well as the Star Spec (compound, tread block size/squirm) but still, settings aren't optimal for the track/car/driver.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Track is different though I think. Heat buildup over a 20-25 minute session is different than managing tires autoX. Sure, it's possible to chew/chunk the tires, but extended high duration heat isn't an issue. I think you're running updated bars too, and IIRC some shots I've seen show those helping to manage the tires in front yes?

Krypptic also has the Aero, which is effectively putting more weight on the outside edge increasing friction/heat on that one area of the tire. (Not helping matters but not the cause either.)

Even with -2.7 degrees my right front Star Specs are more worn (with a bit of overheating) on the outside edge and pyrometer confirms its a bit overcooked too. (The track I run on is predominately left hand turns with some long sweepers.) I think I need -3.0 to -3.5 to balance the load and/or different springs/bars. PSS might not handle this as well as the Star Spec (compound, tread block size/squirm) but still, settings aren't optimal for the track/car/driver.

I'm running a 30mm front bar at medium stiffness.

Here is a decent shot of it on the track over Madness at Mid-Ohio



Anyways, a lot of the E82 guys are experiencing the same issues at the track and/or autocross. One day and the tires (PSS) are roasted and chunking.

The car may not be set up for optimal use of any street tire, but I'm sure ZIIs, Rivals and RS3s would tolerate the abuse.

Heat build-up isn't the same through AutoX or Track, but autocrosses can certainly rack up as much heat cycles as the track, if not more.


Main point - the PSS tire isn't good for any type of abuse beyond the street. If the tires were one of the higher performing tires on the market, the tires may have worn on the outside edges quickly, but at least they would go to the cords instead of chunking on fresh tread.

[DanFromTucson]

As a street tire, I'm really impressed with the PSS' longevity. I have 15K miles on mine, and they look to have half their life left. This is with aggressive street driving on stock suspension, with stock alignment settings.

I realize that's not what this thread is really about, but I didn't want someone to read this and think they aren't durable on the street.

[StigJ]

Here are my old front PSS´s. I was told overheating... Had them for about 2 years and fro nearly 20.000km.
It was only left tire.


And this is most likely the cause (the nearest long turn in the front of the pic.)

[gmbbs]

I read the mod list and am amazed at power mods, half cage, recaros, huge wing etc. but no camber??? You can make good progress but be charging up the wrong side of the hill. More front camber and a good alighment should be one of the basics.

IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, God save the Queen etc.

[Krypptic]

Originally Posted by gmbbs

I read the mod list and am amazed at power mods, half cage, recaros, huge wing etc. but no camber??? You can make good progress but be charging up the wrong side of the hill. More front camber and a good alighment should be one of the basics.

IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, God save the Queen etc.

I don't follow. I get that more camber would result in less wear on the shoulders but that does not explain the complete tearing off of tread. From what I can gather, the ultimate culprit is overheating which was made worse by the lack of a good suspension for the intended purpose.

As for the aero, my understanding is its effects aren't great below 70-80 mph. I originally went with aero due to a few high speed sweeping corners at Homestead that cause the rear of the vehicle to get light.

[kcdedric]

I thought those were the latest Pirelli F1 tires for a second

[seank]

Originally Posted by Krypptic

I don't follow. I get that more camber would result in less wear on the shoulders but that does not explain the complete tearing off of tread. From what I can gather, the ultimate culprit is overheating which was made worse by the lack of a good suspension for the intended purpose.

As for the aero, my understanding is its effects aren't great below 70-80 mph. I originally went with aero due to a few high speed sweeping corners at Homestead that cause the rear of the vehicle to get light.

Yes, camber will help. It's called chunking which is caused by too much heat, too low of pressure or both. Probably exaggerated by the wing, that makes you feel comfortable, but doesn't allow the rear of the car to step out. So, it just pushes the front tires sideways around the track. The tires weren't up for it and I do think there would be some heavy damaging wear on any and all tires.

Yes, you are correct on the below 80 mph on the aero.

More camber, loose the wing, and have the car dancing on the track. As they say, " you steer with the pedal, not with the steering wheel."

[Beedub]

hell ive run shitty ps2's with a proper alignment / camber they are wearing very nicely... and the tighest hairpin is a tyre killer as its flowing enough to carry real speed.

it may not look it but this is as as fast as i can take this corner.... Tyres suffer but wear is very nice. OP sort your alignment imo.

(car running Ps2 in the pics, camber set to arouns -3.1



Great thread BTW...