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10-19-2017, 05:03 PM | #23 |
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For anyone else that might be doing this, here is the post with the download link for the M3 Torque Specs PDF shown above. Man, that's a real labor of love.
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost....29&postcount=3 Salty
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10-19-2017, 06:34 PM | #24 |
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So, where can we read about this S54 issue, like a "S54 bearing 101 for dummies", where it all began and how all this functions; asking for a friend................
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10-19-2017, 07:25 PM | #25 |
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10-19-2017, 09:22 PM | #26 | |
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http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=887379 If you want a quick summary of the theories for premature bearing wear, they are: Intense Use (High RPM, Tracked, WOT) - Suspect tolerances are too tight to retain oil film at highest RPMs. Suspect rods actually distort at highest RPMs causing metal on metal contact. Could be combo of the two. Several engine builders believe bearings are simply too narrow for application, and upgrading to wider bearings and new rods, etc is the only permanent fix, but costs $$$$. Driver Use (RPM rarely > 6000, not tracked) - Suspect cold start has lack of lubrication on bearing surface, so first few rotations are metal on metal. This would explain why some daily driven S54 engines show rather extreme bearing wear at low mileage. Another idea I floated was that engine lugging may be occurring frequently with some drivers not that experienced with manual transmissions. It may never be driven hard, but it might as well be, because George lugs a cold engine every morning getting up his inclined driveway, so by 30K, his bearings look like crap. Fixes Replace with OEM bearings every 50K or less if tracked. OEM bearings are treated like a maintenance item. WPC Treated OEM bearings - unknown? Maybe will get you to 80K, 100K if not tracked? WPC is much slicker and retains oil better, but clearance is the same. Some other shops sell a coated bearing. Fear is that the coating actually adds to thickness making clearance issue worse, but might help with the dry start situation. WPC is not thicker. A fairly new option, BE Bearings, are from the same company that makes the OEM bearings (Clevite). BE requested a custom spec. They take down the initial thickness of the OEM bearing, add on an anti-friction layer, so the finished thickness produces close to the original OEM clearance, but very slightly more clearance to allow a little thicker oil layer. Same lead, copper layering, so oil analysis can be used. This is what I plan to use. The bearing variance is also less on the BE bearings. Edit: The statement below is likely not true and was posted in error. BE did spec special ARP fasteners for the S65, but until I receive further information from BE-Bearings, I think the S54 M10 bolts used in our engines are the standard ARP-2000 bolts. BE also spec'd some ARP rod bolts for the S54 that supposedly solve the stretch problems with the original ARP bolts. Salty
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10-20-2017, 10:37 AM | #27 | |
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In my case I just followed the lube + torque to 50ft-lbs instructions and let it be. Also, if it's any use here is the parts list I accumulated: BE bearings - SP1534HK-STD-S54 ARP bolts - 201-6102 BMW filter - 11427833769 Castrol Supercar 10w60 x 7 Oil pan gasket - 11131437237 Dipstick o-ring - 11431707164 Oil Pan Center Gasket - 11137834886 Oil cooler line o-rings (2) - 17222245358 Steering column bolt - 32306778609 PS Banjo washers - (2) 32411093596 PS Banjo washers - (2) 32411093597 |
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10-20-2017, 11:46 AM | #28 |
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Steffen,
In reading so much in the S65 and S85 forums, I may have misspoken about there being a BE-ARP bolt for the S54. There is definitely a BE-ARP specific bolt for the S65. When I order mine, I'll talk to someone at BE and get the lowdown. Salty
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10-25-2017, 02:00 PM | #29 |
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I wanted to provide a quick update. Apparently this is a common misconception about the ARP-2000 bolts for the S54 from BE Bearings. As Steffenme1 correctly points out, the bolts for the S54 from BE Bearings are stock ARP-2000 bolts (M10 for our cars). I was wrong about there being special bolts for our engine (darn!). BE did work with ARP to produce special rod bolts for the S65 and S85 engines that when tightened to torque spec don't distort the rod as much as the stock ARP-2000 bolts do. Here is a page that explains the out-of-round condition, but this data is NOT on an S54 engine and S54 rods. Keep that in mind, though similar conditions were found an on S54:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...postcount=2550 This is what Andrew Lang found on the S54. Note, our engines use the M10 bolts, so that's the section you want to focus on: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...8&postcount=72 For those debating which bolts to use, (as best as I can tell from wading through 400+ messages of pissing contests in various threads) is that standard ARP-2000 M10 rod bolts have slightly less clamping pressure than OEM bolts for the S54 engine (2003+), but there hasn't been any documented cases that I am aware of where the ARP-2000 M10 bolts failed when torqued to 50 lbs. It does seem that the ARP-2000 bolts don't produce a near perfect round bore when torqued to 50 lbs. It's close, but not perfect. This may cause more wear on the bearing or it may not. I'm not sure anyone knows definitely. In fact, anyone cursed with researching this will quickly find there is a lot of back and forth, misinformation, purposeful obfuscation of data, etc. It is not fun trying to determine the best course of action, but I can say that BE Bearings were produced with a lot of data that was always made available openly, if that is worth anything. I'm not getting into the middle of all that. So, unless I come by more information that changes my mind, the plan for my bearings replacement will be to still use the BE Bearings, but with OEM bolts and the #$@%% 108 step torquing procedure. Salty
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10-25-2017, 03:32 PM | #30 |
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10-25-2017, 03:42 PM | #31 |
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When Andrew Lang did mine, he used the stock bolts, citing his research.
What's with the M10 vs M11? Was M11 used prior to 2003?
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10-25-2017, 04:19 PM | #32 | |
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10-25-2017, 04:43 PM | #33 |
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After doing my research I also went with BE Bearings and OEM bolts. Fortunately I had the motor out of the car on a stand. I wouldn't want to do this in car and try to get accurate stretch values. It's difficult enough on a stand with the motor turned sideways at waist level...
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11-16-2017, 08:21 PM | #34 |
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I've got 67Kmiles on my '07. Just got my Blackstone report back and I'm at 34 for Lead. Copper is still good. I did happen to dump in Techron before the oil change. Blackstone recommended I run another 3Kmiles and do another report. What's the consensus? At 34 and that mileage am I done, and should do the bearings? Car has never been tracked or autocrossed, I'm religious about below 3K rpm till it's warmed up but does often see 7K rpm while driving. 7,500miles between oil changes. Daily driver. Blackstone report attached.
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11-16-2017, 08:37 PM | #35 |
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I keep wondering if the Techron somehow skews the lead reading higher, or maybe it just flushes the lead that has already been removed from the bearing shells and perhaps is adhering to metals parts throughout the engine as it gets circulated by the oil. I'm close to do doing another oil analysis. I added Techron before my vanos refurb, and then did an oil change. On the latest oil change, I added some extra moly, and I'm going to change the oil at 3000 miles, and see if lead is still present. Regardless, I'm changing my bearings soon. I'm in tool and parts collection mode right now.
I'd say bearings should be in your near future, no doubt. BTW, does anyone have any recommendations for a torque wrench that doesn't cost $300 that is accurate for rod con bolts? Salty
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11-17-2017, 09:55 AM | #36 |
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Thanks Salty. I'll run another Blackstone in 3K miles (with no Techron) and report back.
Maybe I'll drive down to visit my son in Winston-Salem (Freshman at Wake) and drop by you and do the bearings!. Joking, 18 hrs (9 each way) in the roadster would end up not being a positive experience I fear. |
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11-17-2017, 03:46 PM | #37 | |
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It would be cool to have a bearings party with an expert where we get a bunch of cars together and do bearings assembly line style. It was nice here in NC, today. Mid 60's, sunny. I just got back from a drive with the top down. Salty
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11-20-2017, 11:01 AM | #38 | |
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http://www.torqwrench.com/ Bought them from tooltopia over the years, never had a problem with any of them. My little PREM2R200HX is downright adorable. I also have a few older Craftsman torque wrenches and using them is always night/day with regards to the quality. The precision instruments wrenches just 'feel' great, a pleasure to use. |
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11-20-2017, 02:31 PM | #40 | |
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11-20-2017, 04:16 PM | #41 | |
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11-20-2017, 04:29 PM | #42 | |
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