The cure for HOT! summer supercharger blues

[fr8tdog]

yea about 12 whp and 15 tq, but that isn't bad considering the outside temps were so low... low 40's. I think with 90-100f OAT's we will see a major advantage (delta). The Torque was nice and I think the way the tune was written and the ECU in general will pull timing when it sees a lot of TQ early in the power band. In the winter you would think you will see higher HP numbers, but the tq is "way up" early, so you loose top end HP (early timing being pulled). This has been a major eye opener for me. Everyone, including myself thinks you will get major HP in cool temps..right? It doesn't work this way with either the ESS tune or maybe it's the ECU.... what I have learned is you see a major bump in torque early(cool temps) with FI and then the ECU say's "no! at 6000rpm I'm taking you down a few notches tuff guy" This explains why I made more HP on a 7 psi pulley as opposed to a 8-9 psi pulley. The difference is that the 8 psi pulley made mucho! torque early and pissed off the tune or ECU or both. FI is a major balance act on this engine and tune....and that was an understatement. I'm making more power on less boost! this engine and tune is very sensitive to alterations.The water/meth was finicky as well, but I new what it liked from the beginning. Smallest nozzle and start 2psi max 6 psi progression rate. I honestly can't believe I picked up this much torque and HP with the air temps as cold as they were. I learned that the effective octane increase isn't quite what everyone wants to think. This water/meth will make a major improvement in the summer...that I'm convinced of after all the testing we did. I spent several hours on the dyno playing with every combination you can imagine. I learned that this very tiny nozzle just outside the intercooler will drop AIT's big time and won't smother the flame. One should look at this setup as a secondary cooler only....that's it. You won't get the effective octane needed for high boost ops. This would require straight 100% meth...which would require a different tune to allow for the very rich 100% meth. 50/50 works great because it won't change AFR's by much...but the cooling effect is tremendous!! wordy response, but it is actually more complicated than I expected. Might as well go to Medical school OH! and yes you are correct...I believe with catless headers and of course ESS blessed catless tune I will see another 20+HP. This tune is locked by a golden key inside the ECU by ESS....and that is a fact. Is there more capability within this tune? Maybe, but we won't be allowed access. That's just business though. I have to say, from what I've seen so far... AJ is a very! and I mean VERY smart bear

[Beedub]

fr8tdog this is getting interesting as a VT1 owner.....
im going to be upgrading to the vt2 very soon, can i ask, did you loose for undertray due to the intercooler pipework or was it just removed for install of your meth kit?

ok now hes the money shot...... with a bone stock vt2 what am i looking at powerwise and did the motor still feel unstressed to you?? with vt1 the car feels like it will handle that all day long, im slightly worried about this extra 2-3 psi, am i worrying unneccessarily.

do you have ANY issues with the ess tune for a bone stock vt2? the vt1 tune is perfect!!
talk to me about oil, intake temps after prolonged hard use if you have any info??

thankyou bro!!

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by Beedub

fr8tdog this is getting interesting as a VT1 owner.....
im going to be upgrading to the vt2 very soon, can i ask, did you loose for undertray due to the intercooler pipework or was it just removed for install of your meth kit?

ok now hes the money shot...... with a bone stock vt2 what am i looking at powerwise and did the motor still feel unstressed to you?? with vt1 the car feels like it will handle that all day long, im slightly worried about this extra 2-3 psi, am i worrying unneccessarily.

do you have ANY issues with the ess tune for a bone stock vt2? the vt1 tune is perfect!!
talk to me about oil, intake temps after prolonged hard use if you have any info??

thankyou bro!!

Hi Beedub,

The undertray was off just for the water/meth install. I finally got you some pics of the intercooler piping The VT2-500 isn't stressing the car as far as boost, but I think you will be surprised how much tq you loose in the summer after ragging on it all day. This is the primary reason I installed the water/meth...extra cooling of the air intake charge. My dyno numbers show a healthy increase in top end hp and tq on an already cool morning...low 40"sF about 6C. In the summer there would be a major difference between power with water/meth and without. I think the ESS tune is very conservative if anything. Timing is pulled at peak tq if you are making a ton of early tq on a cool morning and it seems timing is pulled at the top regardless of fuel quality. As an example it took me MS109 race fuel to not loose power on the 8 psi pulley. With the spec 7 psi pulley which is what the kit is tuned for, the power is very stable and you can tell the S54 loves it. If you start digging deeper into the ESS tune don't be surprised if you see AFR's measured post cat hit 13-13.2 at 8000rpm. According to AJ (ESS tuner) this is really about 12.5-12.8 AFR and the S54 likes it there. I played with water/meth volume and progression on the dyno watching the AFR's like a hawk. We lost power when we saw AFR's in the 12's at peak...so I would say without question the S54 loves it a bit lean up top. You will see a lot of dyno's graphs floating around on the net about VT2-500 power levels...so let's cut the BS and go straight to the answer. Using SAE standard on stock headers (US spec) don't hold your breath for anything over 408whp and 295tq on 93 octane and this is the first run with a cool blower, engine, intercooler(very 1st dyno run) On the second run you will now be less than 400whp SAE and after 20 minutes of running hard you will be 380's whp. That is the no bull shit answer. Heat is just a major power leach and the only thing to do is either get a better intercooler (if that's even possible) or do what I did and put a water/meth kit on. The nozzle should be about 6" outside the intercooler outlet with the smallest nozzle you can get and have it start spraying a 50/50 mixture at a boost controlled 2psi and max spray at 6 psi which will give you a nice progression and major cooling properties. In my opinion the VT2-500 should have come with a water/meth kit. A proud tuner will probably say that's bull shit. I say not having one is bull shit My dyno work proves this. My power stayed consistent with water meth and when we turned it off with my handy water/meth power switch we saw major heat soak power loss. I may not be the smartest bear, but I know what honey smells like With catless headers I think you will probably see another 20 whp more or less depending on header design. I'm going to install my SS V2 step headers as soon as they arrive and I will dyno and post results. I hope to see 440 whp on 93 octane 7 psi boost with water/meth on. This is the combo that will make you the most power unless you had endless supplies of very high octane race fuel. At 10-12 U.S dollars a gallon it's not worth 20-30 more HP to me. As far as oil temps, the oil cooler does a decent job at keeping oil temps just below 200F and in summer running hard you will slightly go over 200...maybe 205. When the weather is 70F or less I never see 200F. AIT's... I'm not sure, as I haven't measured?? but I can tell you from driving and hours of dyno work that AIT's get hot in the summer. Your butt dyno can feel the power lose easily. This again, is the main reason I installed the water/meth system. I call it my secondary intercooler If you don't want to be disappointed in the summer, then I highly recommend you invest in one as well. The key is to use the smallest nozzle in my case from AEM and as far away from the intake manifold. I recommend just post of the intercooler outlet before the 90 degree bend in the pipe. i'm telling you! you won't be sorry. Many FI kits run some sort of water/meth spray and some manufactured cars do. Don't go out and buy a fancy high dollar direct port water/meth injection kit with 3d mapping, safety cutouts, warnings...blah blah, because it wont help. Those kits are more for people that are tuning 100% meth running 20-30 lbs of boost and they rely on 100 meth to not blow up the motor. What you want is the cooling properties which only comes from full atomization of a very very fine mist...and it works. I think I got everything...let me know if you have any more question. Go have a pint on me. Cheers

[Beedub]

Respect fr8t for that answer :-)

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by Beedub

Respect fr8t for that answer :-)

No problem Bedubb. I think you will enjoy VT2-500

[ZStig]

good God man, use some paragraphs. hahhahah

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle

good God man, use some paragraphs. hahhahah

Sorry I fly airplanes, love big boobs, fast cars and cold beer... Never was good with accounting or sentence structure. I have a good personality though cheers

[Beedub]

so fr8t... heres my options help me out.... do i

a) throw meth/water injection on my vt1 and go for race fuel with tune

b) vt2 but wont be able to afford the meth kit ect ect so will be the bone stock vt2 as it comes from ess.

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by Beedub

so fr8t... heres my options help me out.... do i

a) throw meth/water injection on my vt1 and go for race fuel with tune

b) vt2 but wont be able to afford the meth kit ect ect so will be the bone stock vt2 as it comes from ess.

I would go with VT2 as it comes from ESS. The first choice won't get you the cooling effect because the nozzle placement will be so close to the intake manifold and not enough time to fully atomize and cool. I also wouldn't rely on a special tune from ESS. They are pretty set in staying with their program. I think option A) would end up costing you more in the long run. Option B) is the best choice financially and performance wise. You can get an AEM water/meth kit for about 400-500 dollars and your good to go. You dont have to weld the bung...I did because I'm an anal F$%k. Cheers bro. I can help you with the water/meth install when your ready.

forgot one thing... You can always add race fuel to VT1 without a race tune and gain some power. It just isn't financially feasable. I can almost promise you that ESS wont make a 100% pure meth tune for you. Get the VT2-500 and get the AEM water meth kit for about $500 dollars when your ready. You will still be way ahead of VT1-445 because the heat soak problem is worse with VT1 in my opinion.

[ZStig]

Can't you get to 420rwhp with VT1, headers, and meth? Thats a few grand cheaper than the VT2 kit

[Beedub]

ess are pricing me the vt in gbp so it'll be interesting to see what they come up with :-)
if its crazy pricing im going to stick witht he vt1 and spend money on other areas of the car.... really all the vt2 is for me now is oil cooler, intercooler and pulley and tune... im not expecting this to be mad money but then again in todays society...... i shouldnt hold my breath!

The only problem is power is addictive...... soemtimes i wish i kept my 09 GTR as power was EASY!! cobb AP gave me silly gains.

btw the intercooler setup looks very neat imo, this kit is imo the best..... that vortech blower is awesome!

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle

Can't you get to 420rwhp with VT1, headers, and meth? Thats a few grand cheaper than the VT2 kit

That will never happen! I promise. The one big thing you will enjoy with VT2-500 is the torque. The water/meth will not be very effective because you don't have an intercooler pipe to use for distance from the manifold.

[krnnerdboy]

Originally Posted by fr8tdog

That will never happen! I promise. The one big thing you will enjoy with VT2-500 is the torque. The water/meth will not be very effective because you don't have an intercooler pipe to use for distance from the manifold.

good point, and awesome write up! major rep points

I was thinking of getting the vt1 w/ vt2 pulley and tune, but running off of w/m. This setup would make me dependent on the meth, but now I see there isn't enough length for proper distribution

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by krnnerdboy

good point, and awesome write up! major rep points

I was thinking of getting the vt1 w/ vt2 pulley and tune, but running off of w/m. This setup would make me dependent on the meth, but now I see there isn't enough length for proper distribution

Thanks! I can tell you guys that putting different pulleys for more boost above what ESS recommends will not give you results you want. ESS is the only company that can tune the ECU for the Z4 M and I promise you they know this fact. More boost than specified throws everything off. The best you can do is get the kit as advertised and either use race gas or the water/meth trick at the intercooler pipe which helps cool the AIT. Like I said earlier, AJ is a VERY smart bear If more tuners offered Z4 M options, we would see better results and prices. Supply and demand baby By the way, my car feels faster on the 7 psi pulley.

[rabbit69]

ordered my meth kit and my car hasent come from calgary yet!

[johanness]

Originally Posted by fr8tdog

That will never happen! I promise.

From ESS's website:

VT1-445 specs :
Boost pressure: 5 PSI
Horsepower: 439 SAE/445 DIN (31.8% increase over stock)
Torque: 305 lb-ft

That's not taking into account headers etc. Why is it impossible to get 420rwhp out of the VT-1 in your opinion then?

[Beedub]

Its the extra torque i want, its amazing what 2psi can do.... Fr8 where does the 7psi pully start to build boost in the rev range!??!??

P.s the vortech unit ess use is imo simply fabulous.....far better than the hks units aa use which need expensive unit changes for increased power. V3si can flow 775bhp @ 25psi!! Really a nice unit!

Byron

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by johanness

From ESS's website:

VT1-445 specs :
Boost pressure: 5 PSI
Horsepower: 439 SAE/445 DIN (31.8% increase over stock)
Torque: 305 lb-ft

That's not taking into account headers etc. Why is it impossible to get 420rwhp out of the VT-1 in your opinion then?

VT1-445 can make the 439 at the crank not the wheels. Multiply 439 by .82 and you get about 360whp. VT2-500 makes 500 at the crank and multiply by .82 and you get 410whp. My car made 408whp 7psi on a 45F morning without water/meth. You will NEVER see 420whp with VT1-445 at 5psi. If you throw a 7psi pulley on it you risk blowing the motor, but most likely timing will be pulled and you will lose power. You will lose so much power from timing pull that you will be less than the 5psi pulley with a lean and hot as F$c& engine.

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by Beedub

Its the extra torque i want, its amazing what 2psi can do.... Fr8 where does the 7psi pully start to build boost in the rev range!??!??

P.s the vortech unit ess use is imo simply fabulous.....far better than the hks units aa use which need expensive unit changes for increased power. V3si can flow 775bhp @ 25psi!! Really a nice unit!

Byron

Hi Byron,

you will love the torque and the hp The boost comes in low enough in the power band to make the power delivery nice and linear to max boost at close to redline. First gear happens so fast that it's easy to bump the limiter if your not paying close attention. I can slip my drag radials in first and second. If I had normal tires 3rd would be slipping easily. You will like it

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle

so the meth was good for 12rwhp at 40* temps?

Actually, I need to correct myself. The gains at redline were 12whp and 8tq

and the" peak" gains were 30whp and 18-20 torque. Not a bad gain and more to come with the addition of catless headers. The main purpose of this water/meth is cooling, so I'm sure the benefits will be more dramatic in the summer.

[Beedub]

fr8tdog heat soak is an issue..... i Sprint my vehicle alot which is basically 2 laps round a small circuit...... the car is then sat in a queue for a while waiting to go back on circuit, sometimes in summer the heatbuildup is huge.........

honestly i really think these s/c car could use a vented bonnet....

fr8t heres some slower passenger runs... i usually get round alot quicker than this ;-)

[fr8tdog]

Originally Posted by Beedub

fr8tdog heat soak is an issue..... i Sprint my vehicle alot which is basically 2 laps round a small circuit...... the car is then sat in a queue for a while waiting to go back on circuit, sometimes in summer the heatbuildup is huge.........

honestly i really think these s/c car could use a vented bonnet....

fr8t heres some slower passenger runs... i usually get round alot quicker than this ;-)

NICE!! very cool Beedub That's funny you mention that about the vented hood, because I have been thinking the exact same thing. I think it would be a major help. If you go vt2 you will love the intercooler, and will relly love the water/meth secondary cooler.