Advice Needed: Cracked Block and Piston Head

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by wdb

I'm still back at the chicken and the egg. I'm still wondering if the water leak came first and the rest of it followed. Specifically, the cylinder ingesting a large amount of coolant while the engine was running.

I've seen engines siezed up solid due to water leaking into the combustion chamber. Granted it happened while they were not running. But the fact is that water does not compress anywhere near as much as air.

That much metal hammering away inside the block should have been making a hell of an ugly sound. The only symptom you reported was a misfire.

I have to admit I'm no mechanic, I try to report these events as accurately as possible and to the best of my recollection. When the motor started to power down, it seemed and felt like misfiring. It had loss of power and serious vibrations. Now I don't plan to run the car this way and in fact I've already changed the set up... But with a Rogue mid pipe, euro headers, and RPi cans... It's difficult to hear the intricacies of the engine and just what was happening. Now I didn't drive it after it started powering down. I did also mention that it had minor white smoke but not a plume like the first time she broke down. This was much more subtle. There weren't leaks, so it was interesting where all that had gone to.

I have some video of me working around the car talking to the shop but it's nothing good. It's just a go pro video. I though about setting it up for the first drive but then didn't... Like a dummy.

I will have the stock cans on there moving forward and I'll make sure to take video the next time.


I post all of this here because I am not as knowledgeable as y'all and I sincerely appreciate the input. If something is fishy I'd like to know, or if it's done well I also like to know. I come here for a vote of confidence and to pick the brains of the more mechanically inclined. I have been doing my best to learn, and although I know the functions of a motor, I definitely don't know it inside and out and I humbly admit that.

Sorry if that came across brash... I just re read your post and I took it the wrong way. I revert to the above to express my appreciation, I'm still just mind boggled by all of it, not frustrated or upset, just ... /mindblown as well. I apologize for my somewhat poor response.

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by longress

Any signs on the head gasket of leaks in the combustion chamber?

I don't believe so, I don't think they had mentioned anything when we went over the prognosis.

[wdb]

No worries. Diagnosing stuff like this over teh intuhnet is essentially impossible.

Your shop has hands on and they seem to be willing to do right by you so they seem trustworthy. That's the most important thing right now.

[Arsonism]

I couldn't agree more, I amended my post as well up there. Sorry again

[longress]

That's the nice thing about engine warranties, they'll make it right and whatever caused the failure really is a moot point now anyway. This has been a nightmare for you and a true test of ones patience.

[GuidoK]

about the photos, but not related to the breakdown:
is this some scoring on your camshaft or are these reflections?


I think your cam followers might be a bit worn, but where I point the arrows, is this damage or are these moisture droplets? (I'm guessing the last but just to be sure)


I dont know what to make of the explanation of the engine shop about why the coolant went presumably in the oil directly (as you didnt see a huge puff of smoke).
When an engine comes to a halt, the pressure imho isn't any higher than under normal operation. A bang is a bang. When you stall the engine (clutch too fast at low revs), the engine is also 'choked' to a halt with force. That also doesnt pop the head gasket. So I dont know.... It's not something I have experience with.

Also the warped crank I dont know if thats plausible. I mean a warped crank should damage a main journal I think, not so much a rodbearing, and I dont think it has so many influence on the position of the piston or the friction of that piston. Certainly not at low revs.

To me it looks like that piston has been pounding on something. There is mostly damage on the top, like it came in contact with? the head?
The picture of the head is not so clear. Is there impact damage?
If not then I dont know what to make of it from the pictures.

It's a strange situation. I assume that the shop is knowledgeable and knows how to build that engine so general install errors are unlikely (everything in the lower block is paired, and has to be put in into a certain direction etc etc. it's all in the workshop manual of course)

It's pretty much the worst nightmare you can have. I hope the block can be saved with honing. I dont know how deep the scratches are.

I know from first hand that shipping cast engine parts is a disaster (broken cams etc).
Everyone think it's 'as strong as iron' but in reality its really very delicate.

It also looked that your original problem started at cylinder 3 (between cyl2 and 3?). This is also a cyl3 problem. Is that coincidence?

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by longress

That's the nice thing about engine warranties, they'll make it right and whatever caused the failure really is a moot point now anyway. This has been a nightmare for you and a true test of ones patience.

Thankfully, many experiences I've had in life have taught me the best things come with time. Hopefully weathering this storm will prove worth it.

Although they do have to make t right, I wonder if the repairs and the setbacks will still produce a reliable product. I'm still a little worried that too much damage has been done to try to rebuild again. At this point I'm almost wondering if I should have just bought the used S65 that I saw a while back lmao.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

about the photos, but not related to the breakdown:
is this some scoring on your camshaft or are these reflections?

I think you're right on that scoring. I ran through nabbing these photos. In retrospect I should have mange taken more time.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think your cam followers might be a bit worn, but where I point the arrows, is this damage or are these moisture droplets? (I'm guessing the last but just to be sure)
[img]http://audio.home.xs4all.nl/zooi/z4/div/s54follower1.jpg[/

The shop hadn't wiped it down yet so I would say to some significant degree of confidence that those are just water droplets. Could still be more there but I kind of doubt it. Is this something they should consider replacing given the damage?

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I dont know what to make of the explanation of the engine shop about why the coolant went presumably in the oil directly (as you didnt see a huge puff of smoke).

You are correct. I wondered if it hadn't just cycled all the way through the motor, but that wasn't the case. It would have been burned up like the first time and some of the components on the valves would have been significantly cleaner than some of the other valves leading to other cylinders. I don't think this is a direct repeat, but if it was it just didn't get as far in regards to damaging the motor this time.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

When an engine comes to a halt, the pressure imho isn't any higher than under normal operation. A bang is a bang. When you stall the engine (clutch too fast at low revs), the engine is also 'choked' to a halt with force. That also doesnt pop the head gasket. So I dont know.... It's not something I have experience with.

I see your point here. I only wonder if the chewed up or dislodged Pistons could have made a difference in one of the cylinders, but then how would that affect the third cylinder (again) any more than any other cylinder? That remains unclear.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Also the warped crank I dont know if thats plausible. I mean a warped crank should damage a main journal I think, not so much a rodbearing, and I dont think it has so many influence on the position of the piston or the friction of that piston. Certainly not at low revs.

To me it looks like that piston has been pounding on something. There is mostly damage on the top, like it came in contact with? the head?
The picture of the head is not so clear. Is there impact damage?
If not then I dont know what to make of it from the pictures.

I didn't think to nab more photos of the head. The damage didn't seem as present there. I don't know what it would have collided with but the shop did very much insist on using a new head. Could that have lead to a different outcome or failure than what they might think happened?

Originally Posted by GuidoK

It's a strange situation. I assume that the shop is knowledgeable and knows how to build that engine so general install errors are unlikely (everything in the lower block is paired, and has to be put in into a certain direction etc etc. it's all in the workshop manual of course)

It's pretty much the worst nightmare you can have. I hope the block can be saved with honing. I dont know how deep the scratches are.

I know from first hand that shipping cast engine parts is a disaster (broken cams etc).
Everyone think it's 'as strong as iron' but in reality its really very delicate.

It also looked that your original problem started at cylinder 3 (between cyl2 and 3?). This is also a cyl3 problem. Is that coincidence?

Thankfully there's no more engine casts to be sent, but we are slapping new Pistons into the second go around... As the first set is clearly mangled. The new machine shop will hone out the block, but the old shop will go over everything else. That's what we had talked about. I believe anything that could have been scoured will also be ran through before everything is going back to the building stage.

I wonder if there would be anything residual in the oil circuit or systems... I hope that replacing a brand new cooler, pump and lines isn't on the agenda.

[Vanne]

that does not look to me like compression lock at all actually, esp that 3rd piston.. that to me looks really worrying, and looks very much like something was ontop of that piston in the cylinder.. any further developments Shane? any further info you can pass on?

if it was compression lock, 9 out of 10 times you'd see a nasty bend in the connecting rod.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

about the photos, but not related to the breakdown:
is this some scoring on your camshaft or are these reflections?


I think your cam followers might be a bit worn, but where I point the arrows, is this damage or are these moisture droplets? (I'm guessing the last but just to be sure)


I dont know what to make of the explanation of the engine shop about why the coolant went presumably in the oil directly (as you didnt see a huge puff of smoke).
When an engine comes to a halt, the pressure imho isn't any higher than under normal operation. A bang is a bang. When you stall the engine (clutch too fast at low revs), the engine is also 'choked' to a halt with force. That also doesnt pop the head gasket. So I dont know.... It's not something I have experience with.

Also the warped crank I dont know if thats plausible. I mean a warped crank should damage a main journal I think, not so much a rodbearing, and I dont think it has so many influence on the position of the piston or the friction of that piston. Certainly not at low revs.

To me it looks like that piston has been pounding on something. There is mostly damage on the top, like it came in contact with? the head?
The picture of the head is not so clear. Is there impact damage?
If not then I dont know what to make of it from the pictures.

It's a strange situation. I assume that the shop is knowledgeable and knows how to build that engine so general install errors are unlikely (everything in the lower block is paired, and has to be put in into a certain direction etc etc. it's all in the workshop manual of course)

It's pretty much the worst nightmare you can have. I hope the block can be saved with honing. I dont know how deep the scratches are.

I know from first hand that shipping cast engine parts is a disaster (broken cams etc).
Everyone think it's 'as strong as iron' but in reality its really very delicate.

It also looked that your original problem started at cylinder 3 (between cyl2 and 3?). This is also a cyl3 problem. Is that coincidence?

in that top pic, that cam lobe look heavily worn in the centre compared to the other ones too, could be reflections but the centre of those 2 are particularly shiny, any possible correlation to the damage to the piston top??

[longress]

I'm wondering what the plug for #3 looks like? Is it possible that the plug came apart, caused the mis, and the damage to the piston? Can't tell from the photo but it looks like the same damage is on the head for cyl 3.

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by Vanne

that does not look to me like compression lock at all actually, esp that 3rd piston.. that to me looks really worrying, and looks very much like something was ontop of that piston in the cylinder.. any further developments Shane? any further info you can pass on?

if it was compression lock, 9 out of 10 times you'd see a nasty bend in the connecting rod.

Unfortunately I don't have any more information. They haven't gotten back to me with anything further. Although I expect more information whenever everything goes back to the machine shops.

He's still not expecting a whole lot of compensation for everything that's happened from those sops either and that concerns me.

Originally Posted by Beedub

in that top pic, that cam lobe look heavily worn in the centre compared to the other ones too, could be reflections but the centre of those 2 are particularly shiny, any possible correlation to the damage to the piston top??

I don't believe so, but that could have also happened the first go around. This is something that should have been noted by the machine shop correct?

Originally Posted by longress

I'm wondering what the plug for #3 looks like? Is it possible that the plug came apart, caused the mis, and the damage to the piston? Can't tell from the photo but it looks like the same damage is on the head for cyl 3.

I'm thinking that that's not likely only because the car ran fine on several short test drives and when it did warm up it seemed to run fine ignition wise, only occasionally did it have a hiccup. But there want any loss of power until the car was actually miss firing, not sure what to make of that but all felt normal until something was surely wrong. To me it felt like old gas, or bad gas has in the past but obviously it was much more.



I requested something writing as y'all had suggested, which I though was a very good idea, however it didn't seem in their immediate interest to provide me something of that sort. I'm feeling a little discouraged as they haven't managed to get anything out to the machine shop yet, and they haven't disassembled the donor car. There was a couple jobs stacked on top of mine, and I'm still s patient as ever... I just want to ensure its not going to swept under the rug or changed up on me from original promises. Their business partner scared me quite a bit from my last encounters. Anything y'all suggest doing from here?

[Finnegan]

Edit: making my comments via PM.

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Edit: making my comments via PM.

I appreciate your discretion and I have responded. I understand the need for privacy here and I suppose I'm just trying to take the right course of action to ensure that I'm protected because unfortunately I'm the only one looking out for myself... And I'm a youngin' not made of a whole lot of money. I've pushed my equity as far as it'll go at this point and luckily I've done it retaining my integrity. There's not a whole lot more I have to give, and there have been several moments I've just wanted to toss the towel.

As always, I appreciate everyone's support here. Without y'all I wouldn't have made it this far. Hopefully this wonderful car will be running the streets again.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Arsonism

I requested something writing as y'all had suggested, which I though was a very good idea, however it didn't seem in their immediate interest to provide me something of that sort. I'm feeling a little discouraged as they haven't managed to get anything out to the machine shop yet, and they haven't disassembled the donor car. There was a couple jobs stacked on top of mine, and I'm still s patient as ever... I just want to ensure its not going to swept under the rug or changed up on me from original promises. Their business partner scared me quite a bit from my last encounters. Anything y'all suggest doing from here?

Ruh roh, this is what I was afraid of which is why I brought it up originally.

You say a donor car? I don't understand this, I thought you basically paid for a brand new engine, and well, new everything right? Now, they want to essentially refresh an old motor for you while not knocking any amount off the price you paid for a brand new unit?

This whole thing sucks!!

[Vanne]

anymore updates Shane?

[Beedub]

this is the type of shit that would put me off performance motoring.... what a story.... unreal.

what do you mean the business partner scared you?

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Ruh roh, this is what I was afraid of which is why I brought it up originally.

You say a donor car? I don't understand this, I thought you basically paid for a brand new engine, and well, new everything right? Now, they want to essentially refresh an old motor for you while not knocking any amount off the price you paid for a brand new unit?

This whole thing sucks!!

I agree, but if it's what it takes to get back into a coupe... I'm willing to wade through it. I just don't want to come up empty.

I did not pay for a new crank or rods, we were reusing those from the original motor. But they clearly weren't good, even though they went to the machine shop.

It would be comparable to what we were doing before in mileage but not year.

Originally Posted by Vanne

anymore updates Shane?

Donor car still hasn't been stripped down, there was a lot to catch up on after everything happened. He had hoped to be done with mine and was already backed up. I'm I the queue he just has to catch up a little.

Originally Posted by Beedub

this is the type of shit that would put me off performance motoring.... what a story.... unreal.

what do you mean the business partner scared you?

They weren't on the same page and I jumped the gun trying to get everything settled up and they just had two different ideas of how to proceed. All was fine and understandable in the end. It just got a little crazy. I understand ther point of view and it was rational at the time it just surprised me. They operate two different ways and I shouldn't have gotten between them. They're good people I feel.

[Arsonism]

Well ladies and gents, I had an interesting day.

It's been four days since I was told that things were going to get started at the shop. Nothing has been done for four weeks at this point since the last incident and I've got a little insight as to why. I can't say a whole lot at this point, but lets just say that my best interests aren't being served.

I've just about lost it. This is the second time, and I'm not a super emotional person (military nature and all), that I've been brought to tears from this whole thing. Today was the second. This has not been served with honor and I'm 100% ready to give up on the car. Don't get me wrong. I love the holy bajeezus out of this vehicle. It was and is my dream vehicle since it's concept. I dreamed of owning this car for 7 years before it became a reality in 2013, but with everything that's happened, I would just like to drive away in something I own at this point.

There are a couple courses of actions at this juncture that I can take, I'm not a fan of any of them and being the nice down to Earth person that I am I really would never like to pursue anything like this. I'm a goddamn sniper and I have a very difficult time standing up for myself, I trust people do the right thing and that people genuinely like to do right by others. I will gladly stand up for someone else, but I've run out trust and time.

I apologize for the vague post, but I'll let y'all know what's going on when I actually get some more professional advice in regards to the car.

My final parting thought with all of this and literal words said has been "Fuck it. I give up." Which is something I never ever fucking do.



---------
I don't expect a whole lot of people to respond to this. It's a pretty dark post... I really can't handle it anymore and it tears me apart to admit that. I really wanted this to work out and I've pulled every financial and figurative string that I can think of to make it so. I just wanted to express myself even a little bit, to see if it would help.

[wdb]

Sorry for your troubles. I'd like to say "it's just a car" but at this point it's a lot more than that. Yes it's a car; a car you wanted for a long time; a very large cash outlay; a very large potful of woe; and from the sounds of it the list is not yet complete.

Choose carefully, best of luck.

[longress]

Totally understandable. What you've gone through would try anyone's patience, I know I'd be livid! Hang in there.

[Vanne]

hey Shane, How you doing mate? any further developments with your car? Hope things have settled down a little and the shop is getting to work sorting this issue out.

Peace man!

V.

[Arsonism]

Hey Vanne, it's been a rough couple of weeks getting everything sorted. The components are at the machine shop and we expect to hear something back soon but I'm not sure that it's going to be favorable. The shop wants to proceed in a couple different directions that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with and I haven't proceeded on the law front at the time being but I definitely need to consult to see what options are appropriate for the repairs moving forward.

They have a couple options which is fortunate, but I feel like my best interest still might not be facilitated in the second round for this repair. I hope that's not the case, but I do need to get to the bottom of things and hopefully soon. Still rocking a BMW loaner and chalked up some miles in the mean time!