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      11-07-2012, 08:04 AM   #353
Sal@Evolve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johanness View Post
3 Evolve tunes. 3 running too rich. Looks like Evolve didn't get it right. Can't compare tuning an E46 to these cars in any way
If there is a problem with these tunes then we will fix this.

We have never failed at what we do.

I am looking at these cases and going to study the DRF files.

There is a massive inconsistency between the tuning we have been doing for a long time on these DME's in the USA and now.

It doesn't matter what it takes, will find the issue.

There are far more maps in the MSS70 than the MSS54 with respect to ignition timing vs temperature and vans timing vs temperature.

If the temperature remains too cool a different vanos profile is taken.

What's interesting is that the fuelling is changing so much pre and post tune where the fuelling has not been changed that much!

Rest assured, already working on this. We will find the issue with these cases first and if a small issue is found then everyone will be updated.
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      11-07-2012, 08:45 AM   #354
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+1 for Evolve.

Let us know how it works out!
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      11-07-2012, 09:19 AM   #355
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Thursday night I will be going to the dyno. I will drive there with the OEM tune installed on the car, immediatley strap it down and do 2 runs with full heat soak. This should give the Evolve tune the biggest benefit of the doubt. It takes around 15 minutes to upload the tune. While the tune uploads I will leave they dyno fans running allowing the engine to cool then do two pulls with the evolve tune.

I cant think of a better way to compare the two, comments?
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      11-07-2012, 12:32 PM   #356
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I have a stock dyno and post SS V2 Headers dyno that were done during the spring/summer when the temps were high. Now that I am tuned, I haven't made it back to the dyno because I was shooting for a day where the temps/humidity matched my previous 2 dynos. I might just go anyways and see what it looks like. Will cause some skew due to 85-90* weather and 50* weather. I'll post up asap.
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      11-07-2012, 01:54 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw45 View Post
Finally got the dyno done post tune:
- Stock 07 z4m ~ 55k miles
- Same dyno for both runs
- Dyno conditions were hot and humid for the stock run, cool and damp for the post tune run
- About 500 miles of adaptation time with no service, oil changes, etc.

It's hard to make an apples to apples comparison since the stock tune seemed to be pulling timing/dumping fuel at high rpm but it looks like the tune gains a few rwhp and rwtq across the range.
Thanks for posting.

As a general rule you never ever use run 1 no matter how good or bad it is either standard or tuned.
Especially on tuned actually because the power is usually way higher than it should be.

You would need to compare runs 2 to the 2nd or 3rd tuned.

Also, I have looked at the correction factor and the SAE is a little OTT just because of 20degF and the baro pressure is lower on the cooler day.

Under these types of conditions uncorrected tells you a better story.

The gain is very much what it should be in power.

Notice that the AFR is the same at high rpm on both tuned and stock.

These are running very rich. I cannot mate up your screen name to your real name - please remind me if you still have CAT's in the headers.
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      11-07-2012, 02:07 PM   #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
Thursday night I will be going to the dyno. I will drive there with the OEM tune installed on the car, immediatley strap it down and do 2 runs with full heat soak. This should give the Evolve tune the biggest benefit of the doubt. It takes around 15 minutes to upload the tune. While the tune uploads I will leave they dyno fans running allowing the engine to cool then do two pulls with the evolve tune.

I cant think of a better way to compare the two, comments?
The MSS70 is real slow at adapting.

You will need to run your stock tune way before the dyno.

I think it's time I give a much better insight into this DME to you guys.

This is way more complex than the MSS54 on the E46.

Years ago when we first started working on these cars they baffled us badly.
At the time we were only doing hardware upgrades as there was no reading / writing of the DME's.
What we found back then was the DME would seem to have a complete mind or it's own. One min it's amazing on the dyno. The next (after switching car off), it runs really rich and the top end just drops like a fly.

Years later we started logging and looking at the various VANOS and ignition maps and saw how the DME jumps between them based on various sensor readings and knock count. Even on the best fuel it would do this.

Temperature compensation on these DME's is crazy and you need to really monitor the sensor readings before every run you do. Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability to datalog.
Our developer for the evolve-R is working on data logging for us now and we are trying to get the MSS70 included.

The same thing occurs with the S85 V10 engine. I did a write up a few months back to show M5board members how much temperature has effect on power output on a dyno and showed how to make things far more consistent.

I will give you guys as much info as possible on this topic so you can be aware that just throwing the car on the dyno is not always just what you need to look at.

We spent a lot of time developing this and the independent results have been excellent all over the world and right in line with our dyno dynamics (slightly higher on the dynojets). There is no way or reason that one car will lose power while another will gain. This makes absolutely no sense at all. The tolerances for static cam timing would need to be huge for this to happen and would make one car incredibly poor to drive and idle roughly or to have massive tolerances in the compression which most of you know would cause very poor power to start with.
The usual biggest variable is carbon build up in the combustion chamber but it needs to be a huge amount to cause knock by itself.

The AFR being as rich as it's showing is showing us that either the IAT sensor in the MAF is reading really high because of poor cooling or there is some knock going on BUT the AFR tends to be erratic and even richer if this happens. We simply do not use enough ignition to cause knock. The targets are not high at all on our tunes and especially not stock!

Most of the tuning we do is through VANOS (valve timing).

We really stand by our product on this and it doesn't matter how hard we have to work, there is no way we are letting people down who invested their money in our tune.

If it's a simple small mistake somewhere (very difficult) then we will come clean and explain it in detail by showing you the maps.
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      11-07-2012, 02:47 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
The MSS70 is real slow at adapting.

You will need to run your stock tune way before the dyno.

I think it's time I give a much better insight into this DME to you guys.

This is way more complex than the MSS54 on the E46.

Years ago when we first started working on these cars they baffled us badly.
At the time we were only doing hardware upgrades as there was no reading / writing of the DME's.
What we found back then was the DME would seem to have a complete mind or it's own. One min it's amazing on the dyno. The next (after switching car off), it runs really rich and the top end just drops like a fly.

Years later we started logging and looking at the various VANOS and ignition maps and saw how the DME jumps between them based on various sensor readings and knock count. Even on the best fuel it would do this.

Temperature compensation on these DME's is crazy and you need to really monitor the sensor readings before every run you do. Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability to datalog.
Our developer for the evolve-R is working on data logging for us now and we are trying to get the MSS70 included.

The same thing occurs with the S85 V10 engine. I did a write up a few months back to show M5board members how much temperature has effect on power output on a dyno and showed how to make things far more consistent.

I will give you guys as much info as possible on this topic so you can be aware that just throwing the car on the dyno is not always just what you need to look at.

We spent a lot of time developing this and the independent results have been excellent all over the world and right in line with our dyno dynamics (slightly higher on the dynojets). There is no way or reason that one car will lose power while another will gain. This makes absolutely no sense at all. The tolerances for static cam timing would need to be huge for this to happen and would make one car incredibly poor to drive and idle roughly or to have massive tolerances in the compression which most of you know would cause very poor power to start with.
The usual biggest variable is carbon build up in the combustion chamber but it needs to be a huge amount to cause knock by itself.

The AFR being as rich as it's showing is showing us that either the IAT sensor in the MAF is reading really high because of poor cooling or there is some knock going on BUT the AFR tends to be erratic and even richer if this happens. We simply do not use enough ignition to cause knock. The targets are not high at all on our tunes and especially not stock!

Most of the tuning we do is through VANOS (valve timing).

We really stand by our product on this and it doesn't matter how hard we have to work, there is no way we are letting people down who invested their money in our tune.

If it's a simple small mistake somewhere (very difficult) then we will come clean and explain it in detail by showing you the maps.
Could a simple resistor in the MAF harness eliminate the moving target problem?

Example: 7.6K ohm = 65F reading to the ECU all the time, and keep you in the proper map?
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      11-07-2012, 04:43 PM   #360
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Guys, I trust sal@evolve and I can assure you that he will not let you down. He understands the mechanics really well and I trust him with my car, he has never let me down, except this one time where he kept forgetting to remove the post cat sensor in my tune , but were cool, we're friends

Just for the record my car is an absolute blast to drive, just today I blew off a C32 AMG with tune by a large margin, it pulls likes you blew some big money on that engine and the guy could not believe that was just a tune that did this much difference. The US s54 comes from factory with a tune that does not let it have a good dynamic compression (salman can explain better) in order to have lesser emissions to suit the US market and automotive regulations. Once your tune done by salman is working, you will see what the S54 can do, I also suggest euro headers as the US headers are killing your engine big time.

I suggest you guys try to give it a little bit of time to adapt, more than 200 miles and your car will change I promise. The mss70 like salman stated is a very delicate DME.
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      11-07-2012, 07:34 PM   #361
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I just reflashed back to OEM and the car runs unbelievably well. I was beating the pants off of Porsches at a PCA event. For unknown reasons discussed earlier in this thread, my car lost power from the tune and driveability suffered significantly. Maybe my car was the oddball but it's got plenty power through the band now.

Gluck and cheers. As always evolve has been very timely in their responses and have helped me in all the ways they could.

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      11-07-2012, 11:16 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Thanks for posting.

As a general rule you never ever use run 1 no matter how good or bad it is either standard or tuned.
Especially on tuned actually because the power is usually way higher than it should be.

You would need to compare runs 2 to the 2nd or 3rd tuned.

Also, I have looked at the correction factor and the SAE is a little OTT just because of 20degF and the baro pressure is lower on the cooler day.

Under these types of conditions uncorrected tells you a better story.

The gain is very much what it should be in power.

Notice that the AFR is the same at high rpm on both tuned and stock.

These are running very rich. I cannot mate up your screen name to your real name - please remind me if you still have CAT's in the headers.

Hey Sal,
Thanks a lot for looking at these. I still have stock headers and cats but catless headers are on order and I plan to purchase a new catless header tune once they get installed. Even though the top end is funky on my OEM tune, I can see that your tune is making more power across the whole rev range so I'm happy. If you think there's anything that can be done to see even better gains, let me know, I'm happy to experiment.

On a side note, I'm also making about 1/2mpg better mileage according to the OBC and things do seem smoother since the tune.

Thanks!
Andy
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      11-14-2012, 07:06 AM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zubydafa View Post
I just reflashed back to OEM and the car runs unbelievably well. I was beating the pants off of Porsches at a PCA event. For unknown reasons discussed earlier in this thread, my car lost power from the tune and driveability suffered significantly. Maybe my car was the oddball but it's got plenty power through the band now.

Gluck and cheers. As always evolve has been very timely in their responses and have helped me in all the ways they could.

Hi,

I am still completely baffled at what went wrong here.

it's a shame I am not in the US, a simple personal visit would have had the tune working.
Very sad we were not able to achieve the set goal here.
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      11-14-2012, 07:21 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Guys, I trust sal@evolve and I can assure you that he will not let you down. He understands the mechanics really well and I trust him with my car, he has never let me down, except this one time where he kept forgetting to remove the post cat sensor in my tune , but were cool, we're friends

Just for the record my car is an absolute blast to drive, just today I blew off a C32 AMG with tune by a large margin, it pulls likes you blew some big money on that engine and the guy could not believe that was just a tune that did this much difference. The US s54 comes from factory with a tune that does not let it have a good dynamic compression (salman can explain better) in order to have lesser emissions to suit the US market and automotive regulations. Once your tune done by salman is working, you will see what the S54 can do, I also suggest euro headers as the US headers are killing your engine big time.

I suggest you guys try to give it a little bit of time to adapt, more than 200 miles and your car will change I promise. The mss70 like salman stated is a very delicate DME.
Thanks for the feedback.

I can add to this.

When we tune a Z4M here. When we flash the DME the power drops well below the stock power on the first few runs. The power drops through the entire RPM range.
The ignition advance takes time to make it's way unto the targets set.
How fast this happens will depend on the long term knock adaption.

This is exactly what we get on other cars like the Audi RS4's and sometimes the N54 engines which use the MSD8x series of DME's.

Back to back testing on a dyno sometimes takes quite a few runs to get the correct result.
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      11-14-2012, 12:34 PM   #365
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To add to what Salman had to say, i had to reset adaptations at one time because i changed my vanos bolts into the new bolts because they were completely loose and the car felt very slow at first.

200 miles in, it was back into the power range, even more aggressive due to no vanos play anymore, it sounded more raspy and piercing and more aggressive and i have noticed a great deal torque in my butt dyno. the mileage was really bad at first but now it's back to being equal to stock and probably better if i take it easy but you will never know that.
The C32 AMG I dragged one time was rumored to be humiliating stock e46 M3s regularly and then my car made this difference, now the e46 M3 owners have this innate fear of the Z4M

Evolve your cars, it deserves it.

This is coming from a guy who bought an ESS supercharger, i have no affiliation with evolve and no interest if you guys decide to buy an evolve tune or not.
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      12-03-2012, 07:31 AM   #366
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Has there been anything further on the Evolve tune & results?

It seems strange that there were close to 18 Z4M owners in the GB & so little data?

There's another GB started.
I've signed up but really on the fence with so little feedback on the tune.
would sure appreciate more info guys.
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      12-03-2012, 08:20 AM   #367
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Just in case someone logs data in the future, here are the steps that are needed to do in order to benefit this community regarding the Evolve tune:
1- dyno the stock car (SAE UNCORRECTED)
2- flash the evolve tune
3- DRIVE 200 miles (most important step on the MSS70 and the MSV70 family processor)
4- dyno the tuned car on the SAME dyno (SAE UNCORRECTED)

This should be enough evidence for someone to realize how great the evolve tune is and how much power the S54 is capable of when tuned right (and safe --> for people who think more power = unreliability because it is untrue)
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      12-03-2012, 12:03 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Just in case someone logs data in the future, here are the steps that are needed to do in order to benefit this community regarding the Evolve tune:
1- dyno the stock car (SAE UNCORRECTED)
2- flash the evolve tune
3- DRIVE 200 miles (most important step on the MSS70 and the MSV70 family processor)
4- dyno the tuned car on the SAME dyno (SAE UNCORRECTED)

This should be enough evidence for someone to realize how great the evolve tune is and how much power the S54 is capable of when tuned right (and safe --> for people who think more power = unreliability because it is untrue)

when i get vacation time i plan to:
  • stock dyno tune
  • install headers
  • header dyno
  • install evolve flash+drive a couple hundred miles
  • dyno: Headers+evolve
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      12-03-2012, 12:30 PM   #369
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Be sure to use the same DYNO as well as use Uncorrected SAE figures
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      12-03-2012, 12:37 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Be sure to use the same DYNO as well as use Uncorrected SAE figures
i plan to use 2 different dynos for this test-both running the same scnearios as above: a superflow dyno and a dynojet
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      01-12-2013, 05:13 PM   #371
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Anyone has the new version of the evolve software? seems like there's no one working at this hour and i need to check an engine code
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      01-12-2013, 05:31 PM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Anyone has the new version of the evolve software? seems like there's no one working at this hour and i need to check an engine code
PM being sent in less than one second...haha
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      01-12-2013, 06:38 PM   #373
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You can also get it from the website:

http://www.evolvetuning.us/about-us/...n-manuals.html
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      01-13-2013, 01:05 AM   #374
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Thank ou guys I didn't know about That.
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