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      10-18-2012, 08:33 PM   #1
Finnegan
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Modifying Euro Headers - Install Options

After reviewing way too many threads and posts on this topic, I still find myself torn on how to proceed with installing my Euro headers. I'm aware that a few folks haven't had the best success with the relocation (messed up secondary cats) and that's not something I really want to risk.

Typical options
Find a Euro Cat (almost as rare as a unicorn).

Modify the stock US secondary cats. Irreversible, and no guarantee that it will turn out like Pal's install some shop isn't going to do a hack up the cat and leave you with a expensive mess. Seems like if you find a great shop, and do not cut into the wires (expand wires) this seems seems to work fine (but still irreversibly modifies the cat).
What about other options such as:
Add O2 and EGT to the Euro headers themselves in exactly the same spot as the US stock headers. This would leave a set of unmodified stock headers if needed plus a stock secondary cat. Fabspeed and others have both O2s and EGT on the headers themselves (just like stock). With a tune, CEL can be eliminated. (Seems there's a debate on whether the Evolve tune returns a "readiness" code or not though.)

Disconnect the secondary O2s (and keep as spares), and use a tune to eliminate the CEL and provide a "readiness" code. I'm not sure if this is doable. If it were, this would require no modification of the Euro headers, and use a tune to avoid the CEL.
Thoughts? Comments?

Last edited by Finnegan; 10-19-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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      10-18-2012, 08:49 PM   #2
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I went through the same questions Ron.

Ultimately I decided to NOT modify section one.
I sold the Euro headers & now have a set of Fabspeed waiting to be installed.
I'm still undecided about the tune. .....most likely Evolve.
& some days I wonder if its more trouble than its worth
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      10-19-2012, 07:19 AM   #3
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Its half the fun to rip out your hair. Seriously tho I am learning the hard way but do not under any circumstances cut in your o2 sensors. I relocated but still short. Take your time with relocation its doable.
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      10-19-2012, 10:16 AM   #4
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I put euro headers on mine, did all the welding myself, and unfolded without cutting o2 sensors.
No codes in 1000 miles.
If you do it right, it works.
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      10-19-2012, 10:18 AM   #5
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^^^absolutely.

'Irreversible' shouldn't be any kind of a deciding factor if you're relocating sensors. Once your set of Euro's are in, there's not a chance you'll ever revert back to stock. Not for resale, nothing.
You can run them fine with/without a tune and no CEL.

It's a different story with the Fabspeed headers & their bung location - using a tune (Evolve) to turn down the sensors. It's a more permanent decision because you'll need to keep the tune with the car for things to run properly.

My $0.02
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      10-19-2012, 11:27 AM   #6
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Agree with the above, just get a very reputable shop to weld bungs onto your cats and you'll be golden. Also check your email, sent you an email there and I just figured out it might have landed in your spam folder.
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      10-19-2012, 12:25 PM   #7
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I have zero cats and no codes Evolve FTW !!!
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      10-19-2012, 12:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
I went through the same questions Ron.

Ultimately I decided to NOT modify section one.
I sold the Euro headers & now have a set of Fabspeed waiting to be installed.
I'm still undecided about the tune. .....most likely Evolve.
& some days I wonder if its more trouble than its worth

It's worth it IMHO. I remember O-cha telling me that the Fabspeeds did not fit real well and they had to bent(dented) in to clear some areas. Maybe they have been redesigned since then. Supposedly fit the M3 real well but not so much the Z4M. But this was two plus years ago.
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      10-19-2012, 01:05 PM   #9
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They say that they fit now, they actually list them for the Z4M now.
....Confirmed with another member.
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      10-19-2012, 01:51 PM   #10
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Fabspeeds fit fine. I did the install myself.
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      10-19-2012, 02:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davesz4mc View Post
I have zero cats and no codes Evolve FTW !!!
Can I pick your brain about the tune?
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      10-19-2012, 02:07 PM   #12
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Thanks guys! Great input and information!

Looks like finding a good shop to do it right with the O2 relocation is key. And that's the dilemma here in CA--places with good skills aren't willing to do the work. I have a great muffler shop (guys with 40 years custom exhaust experience with muscle cars, real craftsmen), but they're not willing to do the work because it involves modifying a cat. If you're a DIY welding kind of guy, you've got it made.

I'm leaning towards Fabspeed and an Evolve tune as of the moment (subject to change), and maybe working on a longer term solution with the Euro headers for Krissi's Z. (Most mods end up on one car, then the other, due to "mod envy" .)
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      10-19-2012, 03:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
After reviewing way too many threads and posts on this topic, I still find myself torn on how to proceed with installing my Euro headers. I'm aware that a few folks haven't had the best success with the relocation (messed up secondary cats) and that's not something I really want to risk.

Typical options
Find a Euro Cat (almost as rare as a unicorn).

Modify the stock US secondary cats. Irreversible, and no guarantee that it will turn out like Pal's install some shop isn't going to do a hack up the cat and leave you with a expensive mess. Seems like if you find a great shop, and do not cut into the wires (expand wires) this seems seems to work fine (but still irreversibly modifies the cat).
What about other options such as:
Add O2 and EGT to the Euro headers themselves in exactly the same spot as the US stock headers. This would leave a set of unmodified stock headers if needed plus a stock secondary cat. Fabspeed and others have both O2s and EGT on the headers themselves (just like stock). With a tune, CEL can be eliminated. (Seems there's a debate on whether the Evolve tune returns a "readiness" code or not though.)

Disconnect the secondary O2s (and keep as spares), and use a tune to eliminate the CEL and provide a "readiness" code. I'm not sure if this is doable. If it were, this would require no modification of the Euro headers, and use a tune to avoid the CEL.
Thoughts? Comments?
The OEM Euro headers are the easiest to tune for and provide consistent, solid gains. In order to be CEL free, which I was for 5K miles prior to getting the evolve catless o2 ready tune requires welding the bung so there are NO LEAKS. I chased a CEL for a month because of a pin hole in weld that I could not even see. To make sure there are no leaks you have to pressurize the pipe and spray soapy water on the welds, leaks blow bubbles, make sure there are none. Unfolding the harness is easy, you just have to take your time and work the wires back the point where you split them off and head down the transmission tunnel. It's not a hard job but, requires attention to detail. I own a welder repair shop and am a decent welder, I can modify the pipe if you like.

PM ME for details.
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      10-19-2012, 03:32 PM   #14
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semi-solution:

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753853

said to have already been tried and tested.
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      10-21-2012, 03:08 PM   #15
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And just to give all the options, if you don't mind throwing money at the problem there's always buying new euro cats

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      10-21-2012, 03:35 PM   #16
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Thanks. What coating is that? Do you notice a marked difference in radiant heat?
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      03-03-2013, 10:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
Thanks guys! Great input and information!


I'm leaning towards Fabspeed and an Evolve tune as of the moment (subject to change), and maybe working on a longer term solution with the Euro headers for Krissi's Z. (Most mods end up on one car, then the other, due to "mod envy" .)
What did you end up doing? Your sig says euro headers and cats, but I found no posts from you about it. I'm in the same boat now too. And leaning towards a tune, either with euro or fabspeed headers. Tune just so I avoid the headaches, and because its cheaper than euro cats.
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      03-03-2013, 10:35 PM   #18
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DKF is coming out with an OE section 1 replacement
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=191
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      03-03-2013, 11:27 PM   #19
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Question for all of you... if a tune takes care of the CEL with cats or no cats at all... then it shouldn't matter where you weld your or put your post-O2 sensors..... true?

All they need is a little heat to trick the computer.... right?



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      03-03-2013, 11:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davesz4mc View Post
I have zero cats and no codes Evolve FTW !!!
yea but have you dyno'ed.
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      03-04-2013, 07:07 AM   #21
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Has anyone tried those little gizmos that trick the o2 sensors? I have heard of other cars (mustangs come to mind) that use something that plugs into the harness for the o2 sensors...

As long as the cats are there, you should have no issues passing emissions, so really all you're trying to is prevent the CEL so that you can pass emissions.

I read some people on the M3 forums that had varying degrees of success using those "o2 sensor trickery devices".. Some people claimed they worked, others claimed they didnt... I know they can be obtained pretty cheaply, so perhaps it'd be worth trying before having the exhaust modified.
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      03-04-2013, 09:45 AM   #22
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Has nobody built an O2 simulator?? If I can trace the sensor wires back to the ECU box (or as far as they go), I can fab one up. It isn't that hard to put a couple of resistors in parallel, one being a variable resistor.

I assume the primary O2's output a 0-5V square wave, with the amplitude varying based on the AFR. I don't know the duty cycle or frequency, or how the primary and secondary O2 sensor banks relate. I don't know if the ECU controls the signal, or if it's something that's generated by the O2 sensor. But if it's as simple as reducing the amplitude by soldering in a couple of resistors, why hasn't anyone done it?

Excuse the quick work in Powerpoint. I haven't looked at EE in years, and I don't remember the symbol for a variable resistor and am too lazy to look it up (I think it's a resistor symbol with a perpendicular line through it).
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